Joseph and Fanny-Asking for Will's Opinion in Particular

[_Ray A]

God has sanctioned rather strange things. For example, the great flood, the swallowing of the egytian army into the sea, turning lot's wife into something gross etc. Also, telling a father to sacrifice his son as a test of faith etc. Polygamy would be benign when compared to some of the other things god has did or allowed.

And I say, without the least hesitation, that polygamy is a total abomination in the eyes of God.

[_why me]

And I say, without the least hesitation, that polygamy is a total abomination in the eyes of God.

If you say so Ray. But the LDS church has not failed. It has succeeded in bringing goodness to this earth through its members. It is quite strange that such an 'abomination' was allowed by god in a church that claims his son's name. And that church still exists.

It is quite easy to say as some critics do that polygamy was started by male lust or sexual deviations. But its practice did not seem to stress it. And it is not a wonderful compliment for people to hear when their own ancestors practiced it. (not mine). Basically you are saying that their ancestors were perverts.

[_Jersey Girl]

If you say so Ray. But the LDS church has not failed. It has succeeded in bringing goodness to this earth through its members. It is quite strange that such an 'abomination' was allowed by god in a church that claims his son's name. And that church still exists

It still exists? Do you consider that proof that the church is true?

[_Ray A]

Basically you are saying that their ancestors were perverts.

Some of the men - yes.

And you trying to blame a 16 year old girl doesn't impress me at all. You may well be a good person otherwise, but in this regard I have zero respect for you, and I want that registered here. You are like the man who tries to blame a rape on the female victim because "she really wanted it". You should hang your head in utter shame.

[_why me]

Basically you are saying that their ancestors were perverts.

Some of the men - yes.

And you trying to blame a 16 year old girl doesn't impress me at all. You may well be a good person otherwise, but in this regard I have zero respect for you, and I want that registered here. You are like the man who tries to blame a rape on the female victim because "she really wanted it". You should hang your head in utter shame.

And did you read the link that I provided for Don. Probably not. It seems that young women of 16 were not as innocent as you assume. It is true that the link said the sexual norms were changing at the beginning of the 19th century, but young women of 16 were having sex outside of marriage, especially during the 18th century. You are guilty of presentism in this case.

I have not blamed a 16 year old girl. The assumption that it was all lust based is a critic view not mine. I was just turning the tables a little. And I do believe that my point stands: Fanny said yes and she knew emma, if this was all lust based on Joseph Smith's part. She bears some responsibility.

I would hope that my daughters who are now older than sixteen would have said no if approached when 16 years old.

[_Ray A]

Fanny said yes

Well, if you'll excuse my bluntness, why me, why on earth did the "president of the high priesthood" even approach a 16 year old girl, when he was already married?

That should be enough to kill your argument stone dead. But I know this ain't going to happen. You'll defend Mormonism even if Adolf Hitler was a member and claimed that "the Jews wanted it", they "wanted action".

With defenders like you and Will, Mormonism needs no enemies. It will just delf-destruct.



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[_beastie]

I hope that you can link to it when you are on a different computer. I have noticed that that the other comrades on this thread have ignored commenting on it. That means that the critics have a problem dealing with the information in the link. It demonstrates that fanny may not have been the 'Laura Ingalls' of their fantasy.

Several of us have commented on your theory that “she was hot and horny and wanted it”. I’ll repeat my comments here for your benefit:

It is true that some females are very happy to have affairs with other women’s husbands. This is even more true when the husband in question is in a position of power in the given community, which Joseph Smith eventually was. So I do not doubt that some of his “wives” were very happy to have a secret relationship with him. Eliza Snow and Lucinda Morgan are two obvious examples.

However, that does not negate the reality that many of the females Joseph Smith went after were not naturally inclined to have a secretive relationship with him, even if it was called a “marriage”. Yet Joseph still sought those women, and convinced them by telling them things like they’d ensure their family’s salvation by entering into the relationship with him, or that an angel threatened his life, and giving them a very short amount of time to reply. Often these women were quite young and inexperienced. This was a clear abuse of power.

You do realize, whyme, that in persisting with this particular line of defense, you're destroying the normal apologetic response that it wasn't about sex? Apparently, if Joseph deliberately went after "hot and horny" teens, it was all about sex.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Ms. Beastie, et al.,

Perhaps it's the Summer heat outside, but I feel my own temperature rising as I read through the lurid details of the Mormon prophet's sexual dalliances, and the subsequent apologetic conjectures that lay blame at the feet of these young women. Masking a male's desire in religious dressing is insulting to all humankind, no doubt. This sad reality, unfortunately, underscores a woman's lot in life under religious law. A recent snippet from a BBC article might help underscore my point:

Fatima is 26 years old, born and raised within a strict Islamic family in the United Arab Emirates. When she was 15 years old, she was raped by her stepfather. The sexual abuse continued for the next four years.

It was not until Fatima made friends online, with a girl based in the United States, that she finally told someone what had happened to her.

Her online friend, Pearl, encouraged her to tell someone geographically close to her. Fatima told her aunt who, to Fatima's surprise, was supportive and took her to see a religious cleric.

Fatima was told by the UAE-based religious cleric that under sharia law, it was unlikely she would get a favourable outcome from any legal action against her stepfather.

At 15, she was told that she was classed as an adult and could herself be punished and subjected to lashes for committing adultery.

Those Mormon females were victims of a system that stripped them of power and recourse, just as Muslim women under Sharia law have no authority, no recourse, and are criminalized if they don't comply with their status as property to their husbands, fathers, brother, and neighbors. It is a sad and shameful thing to watch it happen, see others make excuses for it, and in some cases express a desire to participate in it.

I urge the men who are arguing on behalf of the Mormon prophet Joseph Smith to reconsider their positions and give pause to the ideology that spawns this kind of behavior.

Very Respectfully,

Doctor CamNC4Me

[_why me]

You do realize, whyme, that in persisting with this particular line of defense, you're destroying the normal apologetic response that it wasn't about sex? Apparently, if Joseph deliberately went after "hot and horny" teens, it was all about sex.

Okay, let me try this again: I AM NOT GIVING AN APOLOGIST RESPONSE. I am given a critic response. It is the critic who sees this relationship as lusty and all about sex. Not me. However, I am turning the tables and bringing fanny into the picture as someone who could have said no but chose not to. Also, as the article I posted demonstrated, young women matured sexually early and some were prone to have premarital sex. But it is the critic who puts this relationship in the gutter not me.

If it was all about sex as the critic says, then we will need to bring fanny into the picture. First, she was not troubled by the relationship. Second, to my knowledge, she never said a bad word about Joseph Smith. Third, she kept the happening to herself without guilt or remorse, to my understanding. Third, she married and had many children without being accused of bigomy.

[_why me]

Fanny said yes

Well, if you'll excuse my bluntness, why me, why on earth did the "president of the high priesthood" even approach a 16 year old girl, when he was already married?

That should be enough to kill your argument stone dead. But I know this ain't going to happen. You'll defend Mormonism even if Adolf Hitler was a member and claimed that "the Jews wanted it", they "wanted action".

With defenders like you and Will, Mormonism needs no enemies. It will just delf-destruct.



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You are not listening Ray. It is the critics who make this relationship one of lust and perversation, not me. But the critic completely ignores fanny and her own attitude toward her own sexually. A critic cannot have it both ways. To malign Joseph and give fanny a pass.

Now for me, I see no lust in this relatioinship and to my mind, all was on the up and up. Fanny did not have a problem, her mother and father did not have a problem. It is only you and the critics who seem to have a problem as you read perversions into this relationship.