RFM v. Midnight Mormons—Debate

[Kishkumen]

Sorry that you think that I am being passive aggressive. And of course, you are free to believe/think what you will about the GA's.

Regards,
MG

You are free to continue to ignore all of the evidence of their failed management of the LDS Church. You are free to blame members who leave over those failures. We will call you on these things, but you certainly are free to continue.

[MG 2.0]

Sorry that you think that I am being passive aggressive. And of course, you are free to believe/think what you will about the GA's.

Regards,
MG

You are free to continue to ignore all of the evidence of their failed management of the LDS Church. You are free to blame members who leave over those failures. We will call you on these things, but you certainly are free to continue.

You see them as CEO's and business executives. I see them as men...often the weak of the world in some respects...being called of God to do His work. They may or may not always be the most intellectually gifted or educated, but they have trained themselves to listen to the Spirit. Now, does the Spirit always whisper everything necessary for the continued development and ongoing restoration as though using the Magic 8 Ball? I don't think so. Day to day they are managers and decision makers using their own faculties of reason and then discussing things in councils. Now and then, how often who knows, the God of the Universe may actually nudge them along when necessary. Especially when they goof up or don't seek adequate inspiration and revelation. It happens. They are men. Men are subject to natural frailties.

I think that there are many of us that are more willing to roll with the punches rather than having unrealistic expectations.

Regards,
MG

[Rad]

Just science? Science isn't a belief system. Science is descriptive not prescriptive. People who need to believe in an unfalsifiable afterworld probably should. I can't imagine the pain and discomfort one of these need to believe people would suffer if they actually came to the conclusion this is all there is. They believe in belief.

They may also be humble enough to realize that there may be other ways to know God than through the senses that we normally experience the world through.

Regards,
MG

From my perspective RFM has a similar role to the boy who noticed the emperor had no clothes. It was not the boy's job to provide the emperor with clothes. And, it's not RFM's job to supply a whole new belief system.

I always admired the humility of the boy in being willing to admit that he couldn't see the clothes.

I never admired the other townspeople for being humble enough to realize that there are other ways to see the emperor's clothes than through the eyes they normally experienced the world through.

[Kishkumen]

You see them as CEO's and business executives. I see them as men...often the weak of the world in some respects...being called of God to do His work. They may or may not always be the most intellectually gifted or educated, but they have trained themselves to listen to the Spirit. Now, does the Spirit always whisper everything necessary for the continued development and ongoing restoration as though using the Magic 8 Ball? I don't think so. Day to day they are managers and decision makers using their own faculties of reason and then discussing things in councils. Now and then, how often who knows, the God of the Universe may actually nudge them along when necessary. Especially when they goof up or don't seek adequate inspiration and revelation. It happens. They are men. Men are subject to natural frailties.

I think that there are many of us that are more willing to roll with the punches rather than having unrealistic expectations.

Regards,
MG

They are mostly bourgeois business types. That’s not a knock on them. That’s just what they are, and that fact shapes the LDS Church. So does the fact that they have little knowledge, interest, or training in religious matters. Good intentions and nice feelings only get you so far. Joseph Smith understood that. These guys, not so much.

You are happy with this situation, and that is fine for you. But don’t take personal swipes at people here, including RFM, for not feeling fulfilled by this stuff and then explaining why as well as comforting people who are similarly unhappy about it. It’s not something anyone has to feel satisfied with. In any case, as Cardon admitted, it does not even matter, as “apostate” Shawn McCraney will likely be ahead of Cardon in the heavenly docket.

What is true of Shawn is just as true of RFM, and if you can’t see that, that is your problem, not RFM’s.

[Canadiandude2]

You see them as CEO's and business executives. I see them as men...often the weak of the world in some respects...being called of God to do His work. They may or may not always be the most intellectually gifted or educated, but they have trained themselves to listen to the Spirit. Now, does the Spirit always whisper everything necessary for the continued development and ongoing restoration as though using the Magic 8 Ball? I don't think so. Day to day they are managers and decision makers using their own faculties of reason and then discussing things in councils. Now and then, how often who knows, the God of the Universe may actually nudge them along when necessary. Especially when they goof up or don't seek adequate inspiration and revelation. It happens. They are men. Men are subject to natural frailties.

I think that there are many of us that are more willing to roll with the punches rather than having unrealistic expectations.

Regards,
MG

Is that…mansplaining or church’plaining? I can’t tell the difference sometimes.

The brethren are just as able to take responsibility for their frailties as any, and some of these weaknesses need not be considered any more natural or unchangeable than any other kind of character flaw.

It doesn’t matter whether revelation is like a magic 8 ball or not, the process is unreliable, and the arguments defended through revelation insufficiently valid.

We have seen example this multiple times mate.

[Rivendale]

Just science? Science isn't a belief system. Science is descriptive not prescriptive. People who need to believe in an unfalsifiable afterworld probably should. I can't imagine the pain and discomfort one of these need to believe people would suffer if they actually came to the conclusion this is all there is. They believe in belief.

They may also be humble enough to realize that there may be other ways to know God than through the senses that we normally experience the world through.

Regards,
MG

Passive aggressive. Humble enough. See this is what religious people do. They victim blame people who never "get" the religious experience. They were not humble enough. We really share the basic nervous system and sensory perception as humans. For one to suggest and even boast they have somehow breached the invisible world due to their diligence and humbleness is the ultimate in hubris. You should shout it from the roof tops. I did it! I did it! I found a way to communicate with an invisible unfalsifiable world which conveniently agrees with me.

[Rad]

You are free to continue to ignore all of the evidence of their failed management of the LDS Church. You are free to blame members who leave over those failures. We will call you on these things, but you certainly are free to continue.

You see them as CEO's and business executives. I see them as men...often the weak of the world in some respects...being called of God to do His work. They may or may not always be the most intellectually gifted or educated, but they have trained themselves to listen to the Spirit. Now, does the Spirit always whisper everything necessary for the continued development and ongoing restoration as though using the Magic 8 Ball? I don't think so. Day to day they are managers and decision makers using their own faculties of reason and then discussing things in councils. Now and then, how often who knows, the God of the Universe may actually nudge them along when necessary. Especially when they goof up or don't seek adequate inspiration and revelation. It happens. They are men. Men are subject to natural frailties.

I think that there are many of us that are more willing to roll with the punches rather than having unrealistic expectations.

Regards,
MG

If I were going to continue my metaphor from above, I always thought that the boy who admitted that he couldn't see the clothes had more realistic expectations than the people who thought that the emperor had clothes even though they couldn't see them.

[MG 2.0]

You see them as CEO's and business executives. I see them as men...often the weak of the world in some respects...being called of God to do His work. They may or may not always be the most intellectually gifted or educated, but they have trained themselves to listen to the Spirit. Now, does the Spirit always whisper everything necessary for the continued development and ongoing restoration as though using the Magic 8 Ball? I don't think so. Day to day they are managers and decision makers using their own faculties of reason and then discussing things in councils. Now and then, how often who knows, the God of the Universe may actually nudge them along when necessary. Especially when they goof up or don't seek adequate inspiration and revelation. It happens. They are men. Men are subject to natural frailties.

I think that there are many of us that are more willing to roll with the punches rather than having unrealistic expectations.

Regards,
MG

They are mostly bourgeois business types. That’s not a knock on them. That’s just what they are, and that fact shapes the LDS Church. So does the fact that they have little knowledge, interest, or training in religious matters. Good intentions and nice feelings only get you so far. Joseph Smith understood that. These guys, not so much.

You are happy with this situation, and that is fine for you. But don’t take personal swipes at people here, including RFM, for not feeling fulfilled by this stuff and then explaining why as well as comforting people who are similarly unhappy about it. It’s not something anyone has to feel satisfied with. In any case, as Cardon admitted, it does not even matter, as “apostate” Shawn McCraney will likely be ahead of Cardon in the heavenly docket.

What is true of Shawn is just as true of RFM, and if you can’t see that, that is your problem, not RFM’s.

Personally I think that God will look upon our hearts AND what we've done with our minds. He will be the one to determine our future state and progress. It's just that I don't think RFM has anything really to offer in this respect inasmuch as having knowledge concerning the three questions I asked Philo that remained unanswered.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

The brethren are just as able to take responsibility for their frailties as any, and some of these weaknesses need not be considered any more natural or unchangeable than any other kind of character flaw.

Just as when you and I make mistakes or a misjudgment the Brethren are subject to the same weaknesses of the flesh/heart/mind that we are. Yes, that creates an ongoing situation that requires line upon line and precept on precept as they search, study, and pray. Just like we are commanded to do. As we make errors in judgement or make other kinds of mistakes we often don't recognize these foibles right away. Sometimes not at all until we are corrected or our hearts are softened. It would be difficult for leaders to recognize, any more than we often do, their foibles right away. And if they are corrected by a 'higher authority' they are probably, just like us, not always too keen to go up to the rooftop and broadcast their imperfections. But sooner or later we usually end up spilling the beans or telling others in confidence of our misdeeds and imperfections. At least those that we trust to forgive and forget. Often leaders will let weaknesses in themselves or others be known, but just as often they would like to keep things 'in house'. Sometimes they are forced to spill the beans.

Just like us, the Brethren have to deal with the constant battles of being human and living in a fallen world. I can cut them quite a bit of slack.

Now, if I didn't have a fairly high confidence level that the church was God's church and that Jesus is the Christ, that would be a wee bit harder to do.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

They may also be humble enough to realize that there may be other ways to know God than through the senses that we normally experience the world through.

Regards,
MG

Passive aggressive.

No.

Humble enough. See this is what religious people do. They victim blame people who never "get" the religious experience. They were not humble enough. We really share the basic nervous system and sensory perception as humans. For one to suggest and even boast they have somehow breached the invisible world due to their diligence and humbleness is the ultimate in hubris. You should shout it from the roof tops. I did it! I did it! I found a way to communicate with an invisible unfalsifiable world which conveniently agrees with me.

What you think of people that choose to believe in deity is of course up to you.

Regards,
MG