Brother Crockett vs...?

[_harmony]

I disagree with Bachman and Van Wagoner -- as to Sylvia Lyon only.

Based on what?

[_beastie]

Now before anybody gets carried away ...

It would be very very wrong indeed for anyone to suggest that:

(a) rccrocket deliberately edited out the words "in conclusion mother told me not to make her statement to me too public, as it might cause trouble and rouse unpleasant curiosity", or deliberately selected a source that omitted them.

or that

(b) the inclusion of these words in any way affects the clear message that nothing of a sexual nature could ever have taken place between the Prophet Joseph Smith and Josephine's mother.

Mr Crocket is a good and truthful man, always scrupulous in argument and ready to think the best of his opponents, even if he is LDS. Let those of us who do not enjoy the light of faith treat him with the same consideration, respect and tact that he extends to us at all times, however sharp the provocation under which he finds himself on this board.

::::chuckle, snicker, small guffaw::::

[_beastie]

See this thread for another example of crocket's erroneous reference claims:

http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/vi ... php?t=6302

He chastised mercury for dishonesty while claiming the Helen Mar quote did not exist in Mormon Polygamy, page 53. I own the book, and the quote does exist on that page.

[_antishock8]

I disagree with Bachman and Van Wagoner -- as to Sylvia Lyon only.

Bob,

Does your firm know you post on this board to the extent you do?

V/R
AntiShock8

[_harmony]

I disagree with Bachman and Van Wagoner -- as to Sylvia Lyon only.

Bob,

Does your firm know you post on this board to the extent you do?

V/R
AntiShock8

It's Sunday. Even lawyers get Sundays off.

[_the road to hana]

I disagree with Bachman and Van Wagoner -- as to Sylvia Lyon only.

Bob,

Does your firm know you post on this board to the extent you do?

V/R
AntiShock8

They don't care. He's a full partner. It's his Stake President that apparently has concerns.

[_Jason Bourne]

It seems apparent that the great fear is that Joseph had sex with multiple women. But isn't that what you'd want him to do, if he restored a principle you believe to be correct and eternal, even if some of those women were already married to other men? Wouldn't that be his right, and prerogative? Why would you care if a woman confessed to her daughter on her deathbed that she had sex with her husband?

I do not think anyone is arguing the Smith was not sexual with his plural wives. Just that he was not sexual with the polyandrous ones and the younger ones.

[_Jason Bourne]

Here is the quote as quoted in "A Study of the Mormon Practice of Plural Marriage Before the Death of Joseph Smith" by Bachman...

Just prior to my mothers death in 1882 she called me to her bedside and told me that her days on earth were about numbered and before she passed away from mortality she desired to tell me something which she had kept as an entire secret from em and from all others but which she now desired to communicate to me. She then told me that I was the daughter of the Prophet Joseph Smith, she having been sealed to the Prophet at the time that her husband Mr. Lyon was out of fellowship with the Church... In conclusion mother told me not to make her statement to me too public, as it might cause trouble and rouse unpleasant curiosity.

Further, Bachman writes,

"The desire for secrecy as well as the delicacy of the situation assure us that Mrs. Sessions was not merely explaining to her daughter that she was Smith's child by virtue of a temple sealing. The plain inference arising from Jensons' curiosity in the matter and Mrs. Fisher's remarks is that she was, in fact, the offspring of Joseph Smith."

~dancer~

(P. 141, 142)

(Ellipses in quote).

Now this is interesting. Bachman's thesis still stands as one of the better works on Polygamy.

It seems odd now we have FARMS and Bachman concluding that Josephine understood Sylvia's remarks as meaning she was literally Joseph Smith daughter. The idea of the comment being taken as simply daughter by sealing in not without merit because the dynastic nature of adoptive sealing was alive and well in 19th century Mormonism. Had Sylvia told this to her daughter at a time other than her death bed, had she not urged secrecy, had she said the same thing to her other children then maybe the argument would hold more weight. As it stands though it seems more probable that it was meant by Sylvia that Josephine was JSs off spring. I wonder if that is why she was named Josephine?

So we are left with:

!: Sylvia Lied
2: Josephine lied
3 Or Joseph Smith had sex with Sylvia and may have been Josephine's father

[_the road to hana]

It seems apparent that the great fear is that Joseph had sex with multiple women. But isn't that what you'd want him to do, if he restored a principle you believe to be correct and eternal, even if some of those women were already married to other men? Wouldn't that be his right, and prerogative? Why would you care if a woman confessed to her daughter on her deathbed that she had sex with her husband?

I do not think anyone is arguing the Smith was not sexual with his plural wives. Just that he was not sexual with the polyandrous ones and the younger ones.

Why distinguish? A wife is a wife.

[_Jason Bourne]

It seems apparent that the great fear is that Joseph had sex with multiple women. But isn't that what you'd want him to do, if he restored a principle you believe to be correct and eternal, even if some of those women were already married to other men? Wouldn't that be his right, and prerogative? Why would you care if a woman confessed to her daughter on her deathbed that she had sex with her husband?

I do not think anyone is arguing the Smith was not sexual with his plural wives. Just that he was not sexual with the polyandrous ones and the younger ones.

Why distinguish? A wife is a wife.

I am simply pointing this out. For some reason it seems in your debate here you think Droopy is arguing Smith did not have sex with any of his wives. I see no such argument. Indeed Droopy has clarifies himself.

Why distinguish? Well it seems that some are ok if Smith had 10, 15 or so wives that had not been married to anyone else and so for them sex is just a ok in that situation. God commanded it. They think ancient Bible patriarchs did it.So whoopie dee doo it is a ok. But sex with a woman who remains married to her her other husband, or sex with a 15 year old when the man is almost 40, well that is tougher pill for many to swallow.

Least that is how it seems.

Thus I would like to see Droopy or Bob answer Beastie's question. If it could be shown that Joseph Smith was sexual with polyandrous wives or his teen wives what would their conclusion be about JSs prophetic call? Honestly, it seems that Bob is very desperate to make sure that there was no sex with the polyabdruos wive's. And certainly Josephine's statement does not prove things. But I think it a great leap to conclude that if her mother really said this that it was referring to some dynastic sealing.