Mickelson Case: GA coverup cont.,

[_Res Ipsa]

Rosebud, I've got no counterargument because I don't have the knowledge or experience in the area to make any kind of judgments. I do have a couple of questions. I do know some folks with high functioning autism, and lots of what you say describes them. One thing I haven't noticed in dealing with them is any sort of manipulation. It doesn't seem to be within their makeup. Ron seems to me to be fairly manipulative. Do you think it likely that what I'm seeing as manipulative conduct (e.g., sabotaging the children's relationship with their mother) is actually due to not understanding social boundaries and appropriate social conduct?

I was just about to edit my previous post to clarify that my use of the word "your" in my ending was referring to the board in general, not you and I Have a Question. I'll go back and edit as soon as I'm done with this post for future readers.

The family members of adults with high-functioning autism report a lot of manipulation. My opinion, although there is no research, is that as intelligence increases and as autistic traits increase, or that as other factors increase (the addition of NPD, perhaps) the manipulation increases. But who knows......

One major problem is that adults with high-functioning autism will commonly report that they're victims of manipulation. From their perspective, their family members are often working behind their backs to achieve unjust goals. From the perspective of the typically developing family members, the individual with autism is being unreasonable and stubborn and is making all sorts of assertions that don't align with the social evidence and the typically developing family members, realizing there is little chance of the person with autism coming to a recognition of what is happening socially, will eventually just continue forward with whatever personal objective they had.The person with HFA, still confused about what is going on, consequently feels controlled and used and is sure he or she is being victimized. At that point, the person with HFA, if she/he is smart enoug justify lying..... feeling sure he/she is being lied to because he/she doesn't understand the other side's perspective. The lies get more and more out of hand over time.

Of course there is not much data on this. This is based on multiple anecdotes from families like the Karrens (meaning the families dealing with high-conflict divorces, etc.). So it could be that there is something additional going on in these cases that isn't going on in all cases of HFA. Another factor like the addition of NPD. Unknown, however.

Thanks. I didn't take your comment personally. You obviously have much more knowledge than I do in this area.

What you're saying would make Ron's recording of conversations make more sense.

[_Mary]

I spent 3 years on a masters in child development with a particular interest in high functioning kids with possible Aspergers. I don't recognise what Rosebud is stating.

[_AmyJo]

I was just about to edit my previous post to clarify that my use of the word "your" in my ending was referring to the board in general, not you and I Have a Question. I'll go back and edit as soon as I'm done with this post for future readers.

The family members of adults with high-functioning autism report a lot of manipulation. My opinion, although there is no research, is that as intelligence increases and as autistic traits increase, or that as other factors increase (the addition of NPD, perhaps) the manipulation increases. But who knows......

One major problem is that adults with high-functioning autism will commonly report that they're victims of manipulation. From their perspective, their family members are often working behind their backs to achieve unjust goals. From the perspective of the typically developing family members, the individual with autism is being unreasonable and stubborn and is making all sorts of assertions that don't align with the social evidence and the typically developing family members, realizing there is little chance of the person with autism coming to a recognition of what is happening socially, will eventually just continue forward with whatever personal objective they had.The person with HFA, still confused about what is going on, consequently feels controlled and used and is sure he or she is being victimized. At that point, the person with HFA, if she/he is smart enoug justify lying..... feeling sure he/she is being lied to because he/she doesn't understand the other side's perspective. The lies get more and more out of hand over time.

Of course there is not much data on this. This is based on multiple anecdotes from families like the Karrens (meaning the families dealing with high-conflict divorces, etc.). So it could be that there is something additional going on in these cases that isn't going on in all cases of HFA. Another factor like the addition of NPD. Unknown, however.

By golly it sounds like you're describing Joey Smith here to a tee. High functioning autism, and NPD rolled into one personality disorder like apple pie ala carte! You left off anti-social personality disorder and whacko psychopath however!

Everyone loves an armchair quarterback psychologist - not even a psychologist would ascribe to Karran the virtues you have. At least you have the wherewithal to admit what you do not genuinely have any expertise in. Purely laughable.

[Guest]

RI, the article linked is about whether children lie about being abused. Short answer. They don't.

As for the psychologist, she was an expert witness in battered woman's syndrome. ( Bias there perhaps). And yes. I read her impressive list of qualifications. I also found a Deseret News article on the couple. We can all demonise people.
http://m.deseretnews.com/article/585120 ... tml?pg=all

That's not what the article says, Mary. It says:

Children almost never make up stories about being sexually abused.

It also says:

Within this larger framework, the evaluator should systematically explore the allegation in order to assure the story is true.

If children "never" falsely reported sexual abuse, there would be no need for an evolution of any kind, would there. We'd just take the child's word for it.

The article is also addressed to reports of abuse by "young children," and mostly discusses examples from children aged 4-6.

It also goes on to explain why those children almost never make up allegations of child abuse.

The evaluator needs to approach an allegation of sexual abuse with a clear understanding of who has a vested interest in lying and who in telling the truth.

The type of fact pattern the article deals with is when a young child reports abuse. If the daughter in the case had told her father when she was 6 that grandpa told her to touch his weenie when she sat on his lap, we would have a very different situation. My understanding of the research is what this article says: in that circumstance, young children rarely have a motive to lie about molestation.

This case is very different. This is a report by a 12 year old girl in the midst of a nightmare divorce of memories from six years before. There is evidence that her father has told her that her mother is a liar and than her whole family is ganging up on him and lying about him. There is evidence that he told the daughter that her mother acted inappropriately with another man at least 15 years before and then told her not to tell her mother because he would get in trouble. There is evidence he was making claims that the grandfather molested his daughter before she remembered the molestation. There is evidence that all three children were very defensive of their mother based on things their father had told them.

Does a 12 year old girl in this situation who is very protective of her father have a vested interested in remembering something her father wants her to remember? Maybe even saying something that isn't true about someone her father claims is lying about him? I think she could.

I don't know whether what she remembers is accurate or not. I do know that the circumstances here are light years away from the circumstances discussed in the article.

[_Res Ipsa]

I spent 3 years on a masters in child development with a particular interest in high functioning kids with possible Aspergers. I don't recognise what Rosebud is stating.

Did you study them as they went on to adulthood and, in particular, in the context of high conflict divorces? If so, what is Rosebud saying that doesn't jibe with your studies?

[_Res Ipsa]

I was just about to edit my previous post to clarify that my use of the word "your" in my ending was referring to the board in general, not you and I Have a Question. I'll go back and edit as soon as I'm done with this post for future readers.

The family members of adults with high-functioning autism report a lot of manipulation. My opinion, although there is no research, is that as intelligence increases and as autistic traits increase, or that as other factors increase (the addition of NPD, perhaps) the manipulation increases. But who knows......

One major problem is that adults with high-functioning autism will commonly report that they're victims of manipulation. From their perspective, their family members are often working behind their backs to achieve unjust goals. From the perspective of the typically developing family members, the individual with autism is being unreasonable and stubborn and is making all sorts of assertions that don't align with the social evidence and the typically developing family members, realizing there is little chance of the person with autism coming to a recognition of what is happening socially, will eventually just continue forward with whatever personal objective they had.The person with HFA, still confused about what is going on, consequently feels controlled and used and is sure he or she is being victimized. At that point, the person with HFA, if she/he is smart enoug justify lying..... feeling sure he/she is being lied to because he/she doesn't understand the other side's perspective. The lies get more and more out of hand over time.

Of course there is not much data on this. This is based on multiple anecdotes from families like the Karrens (meaning the families dealing with high-conflict divorces, etc.). So it could be that there is something additional going on in these cases that isn't going on in all cases of HFA. Another factor like the addition of NPD. Unknown, however.

By golly it sounds like you're describing Joey Smith here to a tee. High functioning autism, and NPD rolled into one personality disorder like apple pie ala carte! You left off anti-social personality disorder and whacko psychopath however!

Everyone loves an armchair quarterback psychologist - not even a psychologist would ascribe to Karran the virtues you have. At least you have the wherewithal to admit what you do not genuinely have any expertise in. Purely laughable.

Like I said upthread, Karren reminds me of Smith. I'm glad we agree on something.

Footnote: I know we don't agree on this. I just thought it was a funny coincidence...

[_Mary]

My interest in high functioning autism/aspergers, had a very personal dimension. The first problem is in actual diagnosis. There isn't a coherant and uniform list that everyone can even agree to. Lack of social skills can be as due to high functioning as it can be due to being in the autistic spectrum, where most of us reside anyway to one degree or another.

High functioning kids can miss out on social development because their interests do not gel with the average child their age.

I have no doubt Ron is clever and articulate and has a strong character and a quick temper. His otherwise good social skills suggest against autism in my opinion.

[_Rosebud]

I think not being a qualified medical professional means I can say whatever the hell I want on a message board just like everybody else. It's an advantage.

Why so you can.

But given your lack of qualifications to make the judgements you so confidently express (and, as I have said, you do so much more confidently than any professional would under the circumstances), I take it that you won't be too upset if not a lot of people take what you say very seriously.

Nope. Not in the slightest. People are free to boo me as they choose. This is a serious subject, but what I'm saying about HFA is an aside. It's not all that relevant, but it's interesting to me.

I'm not really into the message board social hierarchy thing and I'm over my days of trying to topple the cliques to pass my time ;).

[_Rosebud]

I thought of a better way to describe the difference between Joseph Smith manipulation and HFA. They're different. I don't really think the same word works for both.

But I don't have time to post now. Will come back later.

[_Mary]

The daughter was 12 when she gave the details of the abuse to her father. She did so without cajoling. It was her decision to come forward. Technically she was still a child. As the article states...

Children almost never make up stories about being sexually abused. In fact victims are often revictimized in multiple ways for truthfully asserting they have been sexually abused. 

If you want to pick bones on *almost never* then fine.

It seems the daughter wasn't as detailed with the psychologist as she was with her father in her account of the abuse, that is commensurate with a child's tendency to under report and underplay to strangers.

From the evidence we do have, the psychologist appears to dismiss the child's report. If the child felt disbelieved then it's no wonder the relationship broke down and Ron would have been correct to put a halt to the sessions which would have further victimised the child.