MG & JLHPROF: From Whence Come Spiritual Experiences?

[_Amore]

Let’s test you: If I have a real physical influence from believing something that isn’t true (ie placebo effect) - is that objective or subjective truth?

This is a valid question. Placebo effects can create an objective finding, but only in the workings of the chemistry within the mind and body. Does that internal personal objective truth translate to an external objective truth?

Thanks. But let’s not so quickly dismiss this fact that what you believe has real influence on your body. What in this world could possibly be of more personal relevance to you than your mind and body? Nothing!

So, it’s in our interest to explore this power of mind-body influence. You can, by your beliefs help or harm your health! We could try to reinvent the wheel, or we could look into beliefs that work for us rather than against us. Some could call this “spirit” - various spirits - spirit of friendship, spirit of contention, spirit of hope, team spirit etc.

[_Themis]

Perhaps your disinterest in my question is because you know your faith is not a positive trait.

No. I see faith as a positive trait, although I can also see that it can be a source of concern when that faith leads one to do those things that are harmful to others.

So it is only a positive trait if the belief is true? Would a person having faith in Scientology be a positive faith? How about someone having faith in a fraudulent financial claim?

Themis, I'm going to take a 'wait and see' and observe the responses is to the thread I started in regards to lying and misrepresentation through misquotation. I see that sort of behavior as being unproductive and trollish. I'm going to take a temporary break to see whether or not board members have an opinion on this. Depending on the group consensus, if any, I will decide whether or not entering in on a discussion is a productive vs. a waste of my time.

And the time of others that observe this silliness. I think it's an embarrassment to the board. And I don't want to be a part of it.

Are yo sure you don'y want to be a part of it? You always keep engaging it. I just ignore that stuff and as a result don't have a real problem with it.

[_Themis]

Let’s test you: If I have a real physical influence from believing something that isn’t true (ie placebo effect) - is that objective or subjective truth?

You need to be more specific in your statement/question in order to see if it is subjective truth or subjective truth. If a spiritual experience inspires me to join Scientology, does that mean Scientology is true? No, but it would be an objective truth that I joined with Scientology.

[_Sanctorian]

Let’s test you: If I have a real physical influence from believing something that isn’t true (ie placebo effect) - is that objective or subjective truth?

This is a valid question. Placebo effects can create an objective finding, but only in the workings of the chemistry within the mind and body. Does that internal personal objective truth translate to an external objective truth?

Thanks. But let’s not so quickly dismiss this fact that what you believe has real influence on your body. What in this world could possibly be of more personal relevance to you than your mind and body?

I think the argument falls apart because the results are not easy to reproduce. The placebo can in fact work on some people, but not enough people to make it a viable option. This is precisely why we don’t sell placebos for headaches because it won’t work on the general population and the results are inconsistent.

The same can be said for faith and spirituality. It works for some, yes. But the results are so inconsistent that it must be a subjective truth because what’s working for you does not work for anyone but you.

If you could give a list of 20 things that led to your belief, 1 in 15 million might end up with a similar result. I believe that’s the problem.

[_grindael]

(Translated from the Reformed ____)

I did not write this as quoted... I never wrote "____"

You have misquoted me again. What does that say about you?

What else are you willing to do besides falsely attribute something to me that I didn't write?

Can you be trusted?

[_I have a question]

If the spirit isn’t the determining factor in assessing validity of religious testimony, what is?

Individual experiential modes of accessing truth. For me, it's been life long study, prayer, thought, investigation, comparison, and trying to look at the 'big picture'.

What eggs do you place in baskets outside of Mormonism?

I think that I've mentioned a number of times, although most people don't read what I have to say...it's gobbledygook according to grindael, and I'm sure by others...that I see the world as one great WHOLE. The restoration of keys of authority and associated ordinances are one piece of that whole. An important part. The most important part, however, being Jesus Christ and the atonement which He made for the eventual salvation and/or exaltation of all those who chose to follow/participate in the Father's Plan. But that plan is BIG. It has something for everyone and is costumed designed for each individual.

So there are LOTS of baskets outside of Mormonism. Mormonism is a piece of a larger puzzle/whole.

Regards,
MG

What part of “the fathers plan” exists without Mormonism?
What specific eggs do you personally place in baskets other than Mormonism?
What part of Mormonism has been confirmed as true by experiential means rather than spiritual?

[_Amore]

I think the argument falls apart because the results are not easy to reproduce. The placebo can in fact work on some people, but not enough people to make it a viable option. This is precisely why we don’t sell placebos for headaches because it won’t work on the general population and the results are inconsistent.

The same can be said for faith and spirituality. It works for some, yes. But the results are so inconsistent that it must be a subjective truth because what’s working for you does not work for anyone but you.

If you could give a list of 20 things that led to your belief, 1 in 15 million might end up with a similar result. I believe that’s the problem.

Wrong. You seem to be making things up. If you're going to assert something - especially specific numbers - research it and show that it is legit - otherwise you lose credibility.

Look on this FDA site: what do you see as the first control used in clinical investigations? https://www.fda.gov/RegulatoryInformati ... 126501.htm
"1. placebo concurrent control"

Medications often have to be only slightly better than the placebo. "The truth is, the bar is fairly low. The FDA is typically more concerned with safety of the drug than its efficacy, though it has to be able to do something for patients."

It baffles me why anybody would so easily dismiss the power of belief, if there's a good chance they could physically benefit from it and avoid the nasty side effects of so many medications. You do have some choice on what you focus on - and what thoughts you repeat - which is essentially what belief is.

Tim Hawkins (2 min): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7-Mny-kgXg

[_mentalgymnast]

What part of “the fathers plan” exists without Mormonism?

Everything outside of the CofJCofLDS.

What specific eggs do you personally place in baskets other than Mormonism?

Everything that is available to learn and experience through immersion in this wonderful world we live in. There are so many books of learning and so many people worth emulating and so many ideas worth inculcating into one's life. The world is a BIG place and there is so much more than the self imposed box that many place themselves inside of called 'Mormonism'.

What part of Mormonism has been confirmed as true by experiential means rather than spiritual?

More or less the whole idea of eternal progression and salvation/exaltation. As I've lived my life and watched/learned of the world and its workings I've come to believe that there is greater purpose behind the scenes than what we readily observe. As I've said before, I choose to believe in a creator/God. As a result of this choice I find it reasonable to believe in a life after death. As a result of that, I find the LDS version of the plan of salvation...through the atonement of Jesus Christ... to be the most comprehensive of those 'plans' that are out there in the marketplace of ideas. So in that sense, I see the Cof JCofLDS as having a greater degree of 'confirmation' to my soul than say, Scientology, or many...if not all...of the other systems of thought/religion that I've seen out there.

Haven't we been down this path before, IHAQ? I feel like I might be repeating myself.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

Perhaps your disinterest in my question is because you know your faith is not a positive trait.

MG: No. I see faith as a positive trait, although I can also see that it can be a source of concern when that faith leads one to do those things that are harmful to others.

So it is only a positive trait if the belief is true?

Of course not.

Would a person having faith in Scientology be a positive faith?

Sure. If it does no harm and leads towards a greater good.

How about someone having faith in a fraudulent financial claim?

No. A fraudulent financial claim does not lead towards a greater good and does harm.

I think I know where you're headed with this.

Regards,
MG

[Guest]

What part of “the fathers plan” exists without Mormonism?

Everything outside of the CofJCofLDS.

So same sex marriage is part of ‘the fathers plan’?
Which non Mormons will live with Heavenly Father after this life?

What specific eggs do you personally place in baskets other than Mormonism?

Everything that is available to learn and experience through immersion in this wonderful world we live in. There are so many books of learning and so many people worth emulating and so many ideas worth inculcating into one's life. The world is a BIG place and there is so much more than the self imposed box that many place themselves inside of called 'Mormonism'.

Are you unfamiliar with the word ‘specific?

What part of Mormonism has been confirmed as true by experiential means rather than spiritual?

More or less the whole idea of eternal progression and salvation/exaltation. As I've lived my life and watched/learned of the world and its workings I've come to believe that there is greater purpose behind the scenes than what we readily observe. As I've said before, I choose to believe in a creator/God. As a result of this choice I find it reasonable to believe in a life after death. As a result of that, I find the LDS version of the plan of salvation...through the atonement of Jesus Christ... to be the most comprehensive of those 'plans' that are out there in the marketplace of ideas. So in that sense, I see the Cof JCofLDS as having a greater degree of 'confirmation' to my soul than say, Scientology, or many...if not all...of the other systems of thought/religion that I've seen out there.

What experiences have led you to conclude that eternal progression is a thing?

Haven't we been down this path before, IHAQ? I feel like I might be repeating myself.

Regards,
MG

We have, you didn’t get away with it then and you’re not being allowed to get away with it now.