Joseph and Fanny-Asking for Will's Opinion in Particular

[_Mary]

by the way, The Refiner's Fire talks about spiritual wifery (I think that's the book that convinced me of the connection). You can read an excerpt here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=eyvftt ... &resnum=10

Thanks, I 'so' need to read that book.

[_why me]

I think this tactic is misguided, why me. Hasn't Fanny Alger's name been dragged through the mud enough already? That Fanny chose to say "yes" to Joseph does not make her a tramp. (You've been the only one making this argument, so you can't put it on "the critic".) As a believer in Joseph Smith's prophetic calling, I honor Fanny's decision.

Fanny Alger was remembered as a girl who was kind and good and loved by all. Benjamin F. Johnson described her as a "very nice and comely young woman about my own age, towards whom not only myself but every one seemed partial for the amiability of her character."

I have seen this relationship pop up on this board countless of times. And I have seen this relationship pop up on exmormon boards many times. And never have I seen fanny's name being dragged through the mud. But I have heard over and over again that Joseph Smith was a pervert who was lustful and sex hungry who could not control his libido. But fanny has always gotten a free pass in this relationship from the critics. And if the critics are right about this relationship only being about sex, I think that they are selling fanny short and are showing signs of sexism in implying that fanny was sexually passive or a victim of Joseph's aggression.

Now I am sure that fanny was a wonderful person as ben johnson asserts. But that would have nothing to do with her sexuality. Also, if I am to play the devil's advocate here, who is to say that fanny did not seduce Joseph? Who actually knows what happened at that time if the critics are right that it was only about sex.

Now my position is clear: this relationship was sanctioned by god and there was no lust or perversion in it. Fanny was a good person with a great character that she portrayed throughout her life, since I have not heard the opposite.

[_beastie]

by the way, the young teenage girls that Wayne Bent laid naked with still believe the act was inspired of God.

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/23030/wayne-bent-5

Does anyone here agree? Does the belief of the young women that the event was God-sanctioned compel the rest of us to accept it?

And if you do not accept that this act was God-sanctioned, how do you explain the fact that the young women involved believe it was?

[_why me]

What if it were lust based on Joseph Smith's part and terror based on Fanny's part? Did Joseph Smith have no history of spiritual blackmail/coercion enacted upon females?

None?

Well that is the point Jersey girl. In this case there are a lot of what ifs. And no one to my knowledge knows exactly what happened between fanny and joseph. And if the critics are correct, no one knows who was the seducer in this relationship.

Now there is an interesting discussion going on on a FAIRblog about the fanny alger case:

http://www.fairblog.org/2009/05/31/the- ... -marriage/

The critics make blanket statements about an issue that is very complicated and delicate. As such, it is never as simple as the critics claim: Joseph Smith was a horny toad.

[_beastie]

The critics make blanket statements about an issue that is very complicated and delicate. As such, it is never as simple as the critics claim: Joseph Smith was a horny toad.

You clearly don't understand the argument most critics make. I doubt there's many critics who would boil their argument down to: Joseph Smith was a horny toad.

My position is this: clearly Joseph Smith desired to have sex with women other than Emma, and likely was the type of man to form quick infatuations on multiple women. I think that is beyond dispute. In addition, Joseph Smith wanted to find a way to satisfy this desire while maintaining his religious stature - either due to genuine belief, or due to desire to persuade followers. The result: spiritual wifery.

Tell me, whyme: why did God care about Joseph Smith having multiple spiritual wives more than anything else? I say God cared about this more than anything else, because it was the only "commandment" that God issued to Joseph Smith with a threat to his life if he didn't comply. Why was it so important to God that Joseph Smith have multiple partners?

[_Jersey Girl]

What if it were lust based on Joseph Smith's part and terror based on Fanny's part? Did Joseph Smith have no history of spiritual blackmail/coercion enacted upon females?

None?

Well that is the point Jersey girl. In this case there are a lot of what ifs. And no one to my knowledge knows exactly what happened between fanny and joseph. And if the critics are correct, no one knows who was the seducer in this relationship.

Now there is an interesting discussion going on on a FAIRblog about the fanny alger case:

http://www.fairblog.org/2009/05/31/the- ... -marriage/

The critics make blanket statements about an issue that is very complicated and delicate. As such, it is never as simple as the critics claim: Joseph Smith was a horny toad.

Oliver Cowdery made a blanket statement regarding the relationship. Do you accept his statement?

If not, why not?

[_Ray A]

The critics make blanket statements about an issue that is very complicated and delicate. As such, it is never as simple as the critics claim: Joseph Smith was a horny toad.

From the very beginning when you took this track you went off course. You set up a straw man.

# Person A has position X.
# Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
# Person B attacks position Y.
# Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

Now while one or two may have referred to Joseph Smith being a "horny toad", that has not been the argument of the majority. Can you see the classic straw man you've created?

Let me give another example:

1. A and B say that Joseph Smith was a fraud.
2. X presents this position as being held by A, B, C, D, E and F.
3. X attacks A,B,C,D,E and F for a position that was only held by A and B.
4. Therefore A,B,C,D,E,and F are all wrong for the fraud statement.

Of course we all know it was complicated. Of course we all know that sex wasn't the only motivation. Of course we all know that Joseph Smith beliefs were also involved.

Then, to make matters worse, you turn the tables on Fanny by virtually calling her a "horny toad" for "demonstrative purposes", when you actually misunderstood the position of the majority.

In other words, you've slandered Fanny needlessly.


.

[_Mary]

Tell me, whyme: why did God care about Joseph Smith having multiple spiritual wives more than anything else? I say God cared about this more than anything else, because it was the only "commandment" that God issued to Joseph Smith with a threat to his life if he didn't comply. Why was it so important to God that Joseph Smith have multiple partners?

The 'kind' view, would be to say, that more than any other commandment he received from God, this would be the most controversial and hardest to follow, so God needed to get the message across in a more profound manner.

(I say that because my mother has smoked almost all her life, and recent heart failure at the weekend, has meant that for the first time in all her life, she hasn't smoked (5 days now and counting) ..the threat of imminent death is a very powerful motivator)

That would be the 'kind' view Beastie..

[_Mary]

Sometimes, I think on this issue, heck, knowing how men hate emotional confrontation, Joseph must have sincerely believed he was right, otherwise he wouldn't have put himself through all the hastle that he got from 'many' quarters, including from his nearest and dearest.

A quick fling in the barn, hardly compensates for all the flack he got thrown at him for the practice. Of course, I could be everso wrong. Just some thoughts.

[_why me]

Oliver Cowdery made a blanket statement regarding the relationship. Do you accept his statement?

If not, why not?

Oliver believed that Joseph Smith had committed adultery but did not know for sure. Also, Oliver was in the process of leaving the church. Joseph did not deny his involvement with alger but he denied that it was adultery.

Joseph considered himself married to Alger:


Q: In the months before Oliver's excommunication what was his relationship with Joseph like?

BUSHMAN: Testy! (Laughter) Joseph was beginning to feel uneasy about Oliver and his- there are many complaints against Oliver as you know, but I don't know that anyone knows the inner history of Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and plural marriage. There are so many things said about Oliver's possible involvement illicitly ahead of schedule; and what we do know is that Oliver accused Joseph Smith of having an affair with Fanny Alger and Joseph's chief concern at that time was to get Oliver to admit Joseph had never said he was himself committing adultery. Joseph was married to her. It was of immense importance to him not to be thought of as an adulterer and because Oliver was making these charges it disturbed those connections. So I don't think Joseph was particularly unhappy when Oliver left despite their friendship that went back so many years, it's a tragic moment, a tragic story but their relationship had unraveled by the spring of 1838.

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences ... llany.html