Former MADB poster that has turned

[_Nimrod]

I have to admit that the more I read, the more LDS apologetics seems like one of the most bizarre corners of the internet. I have never had much faith, but whatever illusions I maintained about religion and spirituality have all been dusted away.

I am very surprised at how dishonest the church has been throughout its entire history and I can't help but wonder if they aren't all atheists at the top. Pretending at church is really becoming difficult for me. I think I will take a lesson from Abaddon, and though I doubt I will turn to porn, it may be useful to find something to distract me from the droning testimonies.

Hey, emilysmith, welcome to MDB!

We have a resident expert on porn, Paul Osborne. You might want to ask him about the benefits before dismissing it out of hand. But if you do, then you might consider an iPhone or a Droid by Motorola to help you pass the time during the 3 hour block.

Again, welcome!

[_Rambo]

I have to admit that the more I read, the more LDS apologetics seems like one of the most bizarre corners of the internet. I have never had much faith, but whatever illusions I maintained about religion and spirituality have all been dusted away.

I am very surprised at how dishonest the church has been throughout its entire history and I can't help but wonder if they aren't all atheists at the top. Pretending at church is really becoming difficult for me. I think I will take a lesson from Abaddon, and though I doubt I will turn to porn, it may be useful to find something to distract me from the droning testimonies.

Hey, emilysmith, welcome to MDB!

We have a resident expert on porn, Paul Osborne. You might want to ask him about the benefits before dismissing it out of hand. But if you do, then you might consider an iPhone or a Droid by Motorola to help you pass the time during the 3 hour block.

Again, welcome!

Or you could try and find out the church's internet password. I have the internet on my Ipod at church but I think all the porn sites would be blocked. haha

I think the password for the internet is usually "nephi" or "alma". Just keep guessing and I am sure you will get it. Or make good friends with someone that does know the password.

[_Dr. Shades]

I'm not sniping at you or gunning for you. You see, the reason I'm carrying on this conversation is that you apparently possess the answer to a question that is entirely mind-bending to me and utterly beyond my capability to comprehend: How is it possible to believe that X is true but simultaneously disbelieve X enough to depart from it?

It would help me if I understood what your "Xs" are. Are you asking whether I believe Mormonism to be true but then disbelieve it enough to be an apostate?

Sort of. You said that you see much truth in Mormonism. (At least, I think that's how you put it.) Whatever you believe that truth to be is X.

So far, you've only listed the advice to "seek ye wisdom out of the best books" (or whatever it was) as corresponding to objective reality. So I guess when you say you see "truth" in Mormonism you simply see something that looks nifty on paper, not something that's objectively, independently true?

I'm wondering why you're such a fan of Mormonism if you can only identify one sliver of one facet of one aspect of it as corresponding with cold hard reality. So. . . why are you still such a fan of Mormonism if it's so false that you departed from it?

[_thews]

It would help me if I understood what your "Xs" are. Are you asking whether I believe Mormonism to be true but then disbelieve it enough to be an apostate?

Sort of. You said that you see much truth in Mormonism. (At least, I think that's how you put it.) Whatever you believe that truth to be is X.

Dr. Shades, I think it would help to define X as anything tangible. I find great truth in the philosophy of Descartes. In this exercise where Trevor defines there’s “truth” in Mormonism, I believe it’s based on a philosophical truth based on a non-belief of the all tangible data to support it. Would that be correct Trevor?

[_Trevor]

Sort of. You said that you see much truth in Mormonism. (At least, I think that's how you put it.) Whatever you believe that truth to be is X.

So far, you've only listed the advice to "seek ye wisdom out of the best books" (or whatever it was) as corresponding to objective reality. So I guess when you say you see "truth" in Mormonism you simply see something that looks nifty on paper, not something that's objectively, independently true?

I said this in response to the question of what I thought was true about Mormonism that was unique to it.

When I see truth in Mormonism, I think it goes beyond something that looks nifty on paper, although my academic interests in it might be characterized like that. A number of the principles of Mormonism, I believe, have a positive impact on many people's lives. Because Mormons believe in certain things about Mormonism, they are motivated to do good. This is not that different from Sam Harris's insistence that we look at the bad things done in the name of some religions. Beliefs do have an impact, and beliefs that have a positive impact on the lives of Mormons deserve to be called true in the sense that they work for many Mormons.

I'm wondering why you're such a fan of Mormonism if you can only identify one sliver of one facet of one aspect of it as corresponding with cold hard reality. So. . . why are you still such a fan of Mormonism if it's so false that you departed from it?

Shades, if I were inclined, I could find many things that I really like about Mormonism. Thews is not the kind of interlocutor for whom I will go out of my way to explicate my thoughts and beliefs on these issues. He is ridiculously hostile and denigrating much of the time, although I have noted some instances of softening a bit. So no, it is not as though I can only identify "one sliver of one facet of Mormonism" that I find to be true or good, but that I am not interested in being grilled about my personal beliefs by hostile strangers online. Frankly, it is nobody's business but my own.

[_marg]

This is not that different from Sam Harris's insistence that we look at the bad things done in the name of some religions. Beliefs do have an impact, and beliefs that have a positive impact on the lives of Mormons deserve to be called true in the sense that they work for many Mormons.

So beliefs that work deserve to be called "true" because they truly work. So beliefs which don't work deserve to be called "true" because they truly don't work.

So then all beliefs are true whether they work or don't.

[_Trevor]

So beliefs that work deserve to be called "true" because they truly work. So beliefs which don't work deserve to be called "true" because they truly don't work.

So then all beliefs are true whether they work or don't.

Trust marg to get it wrong.

[_Dr. Shades]

A number of the principles of Mormonism, I believe, have a positive impact on many people's lives.

Okay, I'm with you so far. . .

Because Mormons believe in certain things about Mormonism, they are motivated to do good.

That's undeniable. So how about you? The uniquely Mormon things that motivate others to do good. . . do you believe in them?