Flip Side of the Coin

[_Themis]

Cylon, excellent; this is exactly what I was looking for. Note that Hinckley does not say that every little scripture in the canon is completely true, and in particular he does not say that the facsimiles in the Book of Abraham are guaranteed to be exactly as Joseph Smith said they were. As I've said before, I don't believe in scriptural inerrancy. God got the scriptures to the point where He wanted them, but that doesn't mean they're guaranteed to not have any factual errors.

I don't believe in scriptural inerrancy either, but the church's problems are far worse then that. The facsimiles are completely wrong. The hieroglyphs which can be translated say something entirely different the what Joseph claims is from God.

[_KevinSim]

There you go again, Themis. If the LDS God having "more evidence against it" doesn't mean the LDS God being less "likely to exist," then what does "more evidence against it" mean? Here you appear to be saying the two concepts are not identical, which was my original understanding as well. That being the case, what does "more evidence against it" mean?

More evidence means MORE evidence. The Bible of Christianity makes claims that are harder to prove wrong, for various reasons. Joseph Smith made many more claims that are easier to prove wrong.

Then what does "against it" mean? Against it what? Against it existing? If not existing, then what is the evidence against it doing?

You may want to take it up with them, but I think many have different ideas then the ones you have been taught about Christians and their beliefs regarding the Bible.

I have never been taught anything, in the LDS Church or anywhere else, about being able to tell the goodness of God by how God controls the eternal fate of the unsaved. Rather, I figured that out myself. The deity of Biblical Christianity, by action or inaction, brings about literally endless torment of the unsaved when that deity could cause those souls to cease to exist whenever that deity chose to. That's infinite damage to a large number of the souls that have lived on the Earth. What good can that infinite damage do anyone? I'll ask you again, if we can't tell that a good deity would cause those souls to cease to exist, if s/he could, then what can we know about what a good deity would do?

[_KevinSim]

Are you now saying otherwise?

Yes I am. Like I said, I have never thought much of the idea of scriptural inerrancy. I agree completely with what Gordon Hinckley said, but he did not come out and say that every single verse in the scriptures was in fact factually correct.

[_KevinSim]

I don't believe in scriptural inerrancy either, but the church's problems are far worse then that. The facsimiles are completely wrong. The hieroglyphs which can be translated say something entirely different the what Joseph claims is from God.

Critics have said that. I guess I would be interested in what the LDS Church has to say about the critics making that claim, if it actually has made any such statements.

[_sock puppet]

You believe in a religion that has identified a set of information, its canon, as divine and true, but you have no idea whether or not a part of that canon is (the facsimiles are) true?

That's what I said.

Thus, you believe something that you have no idea of whether it is divine and true, or not.

And the reason is why? Because men officed up in Salt Lake City say so?

[_Themis]

Then what does "against it" mean? Against it what? Against it existing? If not existing, then what is the evidence against it doing?

Really? You do like to play games. Against the claims of the particular religion. For LDS most claims come from Joseph. His claims have more evidence showing his claims to be incorrect. These other religions have less for various reasons.

I have never been taught anything, in the LDS Church or anywhere else, about being able to tell the goodness of God by how God controls the eternal fate of the unsaved. Rather, I figured that out myself. The deity of Biblical Christianity, by action or inaction, brings about literally endless torment of the unsaved when that deity could cause those souls to cease to exist whenever that deity chose to. That's infinite damage to a large number of the souls that have lived on the Earth. What good can that infinite damage do anyone? I'll ask you again, if we can't tell that a good deity would cause those souls to cease to exist, if s/he could, then what can we know about what a good deity would do?

I am not the first person to suggest you are not interested in listening to others and what they believe. I have noticed, I would say most, Christians here suggest a different belief. Maybe you should become a JW They believe all non-members will cease to exist.

[Guest]

I don't believe in scriptural inerrancy either, but the church's problems are far worse then that. The facsimiles are completely wrong. The hieroglyphs which can be translated say something entirely different the what Joseph claims is from God.

Critics have said that. I guess I would be interested in what the LDS Church has to say about the critics making that claim, if it actually has made any such statements.

Why would you want to hear what the church says about the critics. Maybe you should seek to see what the Church, or even better, LDS Egyptologists say about the papyri.

[_Drifting]

Are you now saying otherwise?

Yes I am. Like I said, I have never thought much of the idea of scriptural inerrancy. I agree completely with what Gordon Hinckley said, but he did not come out and say that every single verse in the scriptures was in fact factually correct.

Here is what Hinckley said.

Well, it's either true or false. If it's false, we're engaged in a great fraud. If it's true, it's the most important thing in the world. Now, that's the whole picture. It is either right or wrong, true or false, fraudulent or true. And that's exactly where we stand, with a conviction in our hearts that it is true: that Joseph went into the [Sacred] Grove; that he saw the Father and the Son; that he talked with them; that Moroni came; that the Book of Mormon was translated from the plates; that the priesthood was restored by those who held it anciently. That's our claim. That's where we stand, and that's where we fall, if we fall. But we don't. We just stand secure in that faith.

If the scriptural canon within Mormonism, given by direct translation from God, is errant well that would I think be a clear indicator that either it's all false or God cannot be trusted to give us accurate information.

[_KevinSim]

Thus, you believe something that you have no idea of whether it is divine and true, or not.

Not really. I believe that the actual text of the Book of Abraham is divinely inspired. I used to believe the facsimiles and Joseph Smith's explanations of them were divinely inspired, but now I'm not so sure.

And the reason is why? Because men officed up in Salt Lake City say so?

The reason is because back in 1976 God told me that He wanted me to treat as prophets those "men officed up in Salt Lake City."

[_KevinSim]

Really? You do like to play games.

I'm not playing games; I'm simply trying to understand what you mean. On 22 August at 8:19 you posted:

I wouldn't say more likely to exist, but that the LDS God has more evidence against it.

You certainly sound like you're drawing a distinction between evidence that a faith group's deity doesn't exist and evidence "against it." If evidence "against it" is not the same thing as evidence that its deity doesn't exist, then what does "evidence against it" mean?

I am not the first person to suggest you are not interested in listening to others and what they believe. I have noticed, I would say most, Christians here suggest a different belief. Maybe you should become a JW They believe all non-members will cease to exist.

The Jehovah's Witnesses have a perfectly adequate solution to the problem, I agree. I tend to categorize them along with the Seventh-day Adventists and Christian Universalists as groups that have solved the problem, while the rest of orthodox Christianity refuses to admit the problem exists. But I think the group that solves the problem in the way most aligned with what the Bible teaches is the LDS Church.