Problematic John Dehlin, a short list

[pistolero]

Actually it's because she is an extremely brave person that she called him out publicly.....

Obviously I don't know her, but I agree with your sentiment. And respect to her for doing something that sounds like was difficult for you both. Again, a lot of the push back on this topic here was due to it being communicated 2nd, 3rd, 4th hand... It gets out of control and just becomes a free-for-all sewer of opinion (with lots of useful insights that may or not relate to this case in particular). There is a rule book - the law - but that doesn't stop people from having unpopular opinions.

It's too bad we live in such a misogynistic patriarchal world. I'm curious too... Where is the actual "rule book"? It's okay then if John Dehlin is creepy in private if not called out privately? The mere fact of being called out publicly over in private makes his actions different. I would hope if someone was being raped they would be brave enough to scream and shout with all their might for anyone to hear and then upon hearing others would come to give support. It's no wonder that victims do remain silent. Of course there was realization on the flack that would hit our family by calling him out and at the same time it's okay to be completely sick of it!

I don't think anyone questions the brave survivors that spoke out in public about their experiences with HW. In the end, it was enough to tip the balance against the loaded system. He'd probably still be at large if it wasn't for them.

I'm not sure how comfortable I feel about juxtaposing "barrage liking" and rape.

Regarding JD, I'm still not completely convinced he's a dangerous predator. At least, he's a fool, for sure. But I wonder whether "...n & d of almost all men..." applies. He's big, popular and conquering the world... gone to his head a little? is it the rockstar behaviour described in another thread?


Regarding your exit story, will it ever be told?

[Jersey Girl]

No that it matters, but here is my take on the Facebook thing. If some male Facebook friend liked, then unliked, the all of a sudden kind of spam-liked my photos, I would immediately think he was trying to get my attention for some reason. If Dehlin lacks the insight to understand how that would come off to a woman, then he has no business being in the business he's in. I should think that perspective taking/empathy would be a key piece of his 'ministry' to others. If he hasn't got that (and I don't think he does re: both this is the Rosebud events) then he's going to be hit with things like this over and over again because he doesn't know what prosocial behaviors are to start with.

I also don't want to hear that jazz about people coming into his workplace. He chose online public life as a career. Couple that choice with his faulty decision making regarding relationships, then you pretty much get what you chose. Not counting the typical run of the mill trolls of course.

I said he was "off" and nothing here has changed my mind about that. This is coming from someone who has absolutely no skin in the game. Just an onlooker.

[Kishkumen]

Actually it's because she is an extremely brave person that she called him out publicly..... It's too bad we live in such a misogynistic patriarchal world. I'm curious too... Where is the actual "rule book"? It's okay then if John Dehlin is creepy in private if not called out privately? The mere fact of being called out publicly over in private makes his actions different. I would hope if someone was being raped they would be brave enough to scream and shout with all their might for anyone to hear and then upon hearing others would come to give support. It's no wonder that victims do remain silent. Of course there was realization on the flack that would hit our family by calling him out and at the same time it's okay to be completely sick of it!

And the predictable outcome was that he was not to happy to be blindsided in public. That was her choice, and that was his reaction, and that’s all OK. I don’t know what this has to do with us “living in such a misogynistic patriarchal world.” I guess I’m not tracking the connection there. Of course, you are right about what it is. Too bad that Dehlin has a podcast and he behaved inappropriately? Too bad that people aren’t immediately believed when they claim something?

The rule book used to be called etiquette. When we had it, not only was Dehlin’s behavior still weird and inappropriate, but the way of responding to his weird inappropriateness would have been direct and private. So, we don’t have that book anymore. What happened happened. Now we all know about his actions and you all’s reactions, and his reaction to your reaction. I think it all went down about as one would expect. He shouldn’t have liked the photos. Agreed.

The whole comparison to rape is, in my view, hyperbolic. But, I think I get what you are saying. Maybe, you suppose, he is shamed out of doing this whole barrage liking of body-positive photos again. I hope that’s true. He really shouldn’t have done it and now he may not repeat the mistake. Then I hope you both feel like this was worth the sacrifice of your podcast appearance and friendship with John Dehlin. In my view that’s a no-brainer of a calculation. Obviously the podcast opportunity and the friendship count for very little when you can perhaps keep another person from that creepy experience.

Still, I have to wonder why we are still talking about this if it all worked out according to plan. You guys pretty much got your shot at Dehlin and now it’s over. Right?

[Kishkumen]

No that it matters, but here is my take on the Facebook thing. If some male Facebook friend liked, then unliked, the all of a sudden kind of spam-liked my photos, I would immediately think he was trying to get my attention for some reason. If Dehlin lacks the insight to understand how that would come off to a woman, then he has no business being in the business he's in. I should think that perspective taking/empathy would be a key piece of his 'ministry' to others. If he hasn't got that (and I don't think he does re: both this is the Rosebud events) then he's going to be hit with things like this over and over again because he doesn't know what prosocial behaviors are to start with.

I also don't want to hear that jazz about people coming into his workplace. He chose online public life as a career. Couple that choice with his faulty decision making regarding relationships, then you pretty much get what you chose. Not counting the typical run of the mill trolls of course.

I said he was "off" and nothing here has changed my mind about that. This is coming from someone who has absolutely no skin in the game. Just an onlooker.

Yep. Definitely odd. Probably not ideally suited for his present line of work.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

... he was not to happy to be blindsided in public.

... the perpetrator begins virtue signaling and finally when he asked on his own page for members to give practical examples of ex-Mormon mens bad behavior with ex-Mormon women ...

I mean, I don’t know what kind of personality who has done what he’s done thinks to himself, “I really want ex-Mormon women to feel like we can learn from them. Let me ask them in full public view what kinds of things to ex-Mormon men do to make them feel bad? I sure hopes no one brings up my own embarrassing crap that I’ve done to ex-Mormon women. Meh. I’ll just ban them and call them evil.”

There is NO WAY this kind of behavior is a three-off. At this point I can guaran-damned-tee he has crossed the line regularly. I’d be really interested to read some more women’s stories about their uncomfortable interactions with him.

- Doc

[Jersey Girl]

No that it matters, but here is my take on the Facebook thing. If some male Facebook friend liked, then unliked, the all of a sudden kind of spam-liked my photos, I would immediately think he was trying to get my attention for some reason. If Dehlin lacks the insight to understand how that would come off to a woman, then he has no business being in the business he's in. I should think that perspective taking/empathy would be a key piece of his 'ministry' to others. If he hasn't got that (and I don't think he does re: both this is the Rosebud events) then he's going to be hit with things like this over and over again because he doesn't know what prosocial behaviors are to start with.

I also don't want to hear that jazz about people coming into his workplace. He chose online public life as a career. Couple that choice with his faulty decision making regarding relationships, then you pretty much get what you chose. Not counting the typical run of the mill trolls of course.

I said he was "off" and nothing here has changed my mind about that. This is coming from someone who has absolutely no skin in the game. Just an onlooker.

Yep. Definitely odd. Probably not ideally suited for his present line of work.

He doesn't seem to know where or how to draw the line between professional and personal life. Doesn't follow a clear ethic that demands that he separate the two. Instead he blurs the lines. That's only my impression from the outside looking in.

[Jersey Girl]

... he was not to happy to be blindsided in public.

... the perpetrator begins virtue signaling and finally when he asked on his own page for members to give practical examples of ex-Mormon mens bad behavior with ex-Mormon women ...

I mean, I don’t know what kind of personality who has done what he’s done thinks to himself, “I really want ex-Mormon women to feel like we can learn from them. Let me ask them in full public view what kinds of things to ex-Mormon men do to make them feel bad? I sure hopes no one brings up my own embarrassing crap that I’ve done to ex-Mormon women. Meh. I’ll just ban them and call them evil.”

There is NO WAY this kind of behavior is a three-off. At this point I can guaran-damned-tee he has crossed the line regularly. I’d be really interested to read some more women’s stories about their uncomfortable interactions with him.

- Doc

When I saw that he asked that question, my immediate reaction was that he wasn't genuinely curious about the answer, but rather he was going to use to to generate future income and used that question as a kind of cover for his mistake.

Kind of like someone asking for a list of sexist remarks not to be used when speaking to women.

[Kishkumen]

I mean, I don’t know what kind of personality who has done what he’s done thinks to himself, “I really want ex-Mormon women to feel like we can learn from them. Let me ask them in full public view what kinds of things to ex-Mormon men do to make them feel bad? I sure hopes no one brings up my own embarrassing Crap that I’ve done to ex-Mormon women. Meh. I’ll just ban them and call them evil.”

There is NO WAY this kind of behavior is a three-off. At this point I can guaran-damned-tee he has crossed the line regularly. I’d be really interested to read some more women’s stories about their uncomfortable interactions with him.

Something tells me you will get your opportunity, DocCam. I agree that it looks like he crosses some lines of propriety and exercises poor judgment. Usually that kind of problem will manifest itself in various ways. From what I can see he remains pretty oblivious to how others are reacting to him, and so this portends the eventual unraveling of his career. Unlike you, however, I am not all that interested in reading further stories about his consensual affairs or barrage likings. These things should matter to those involved, and I hope for the outcome that is best for all concerned.

[Kishkumen]

He doesn't seem to know where or how to draw the line between professional and personal life. Doesn't follow a clear ethic that demands that he separate the two. Instead he blurs the lines. That's only my impression from the outside looking in.

I agree. Sometimes others have gone there with him willingly. Doesn’t make it right.

[Jersey Girl]

He doesn't seem to know where or how to draw the line between professional and personal life. Doesn't follow a clear ethic that demands that he separate the two. Instead he blurs the lines. That's only my impression from the outside looking in.

I agree. Sometimes others have gone there with him willingly. Doesn’t make it right.

Yes I agree with that as well.