2nd Watson Letter just found!'

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_Ray A

Re: 2nd Watson Letter just found!'

Post by _Ray A »

beastie wrote:Wait just a minute. If Watson knew the "right" answer in 1985 in his letter to Hamblin, why in the world did he give the "wrong" answer in 1990?????


I think he was genuinely confused. See my previous post. Or, it may have been a case of "double-speak". He knew what the scholars concluded, but with 100+ years of GA statements supporting the NY Cumorah view, what could he do? It seems like he was giving one answer to the members, and another to the scholars.
_beastie
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Re: 2nd Watson Letter just found!'

Post by _beastie »

How much good faith has DCP demonstrated?

One day he posts that Hamblin must have no idea of this Watson letter mess; the next day DCP posts a quote from his own e-mail/text to Hamblin that Metcalfe has now jumped into the fray (with no need to explain to Hamblin what fray that would be).

He denies the possibility that the Ogden Fax is the 4/23/1993 'Watson letter', refusing to entertain the possibility or express any intellectual curiosity despite the date being the very one in issue, the sending Office the same, the receiving FARMS the same, and the verbiage being identical but for the ending phrase, "that has been suggested." Not what I would consider 'good faith' demonstrated.

DCP has posted dozens of times that this issue is of no importance to him, Hamblin or FARMS, all the while he is texting Hamblin about it, talking to colleagues at BYU about it, and calling the Office of the First Presidency about it. That demonstrates good faith that it is, as DCP has protested time and again, that it is of no importance to him.

Despite Metcalfe's having posted the Z board quotes of DCP about the interactions of FARMS and the Brethren, DCP continued to post that FARMS did nothing of the sort.

With all due respect--and my respect is genuine in particular due to your efforts to enlighten the zealots in the last few days--I must disagree that anything in this episode proves DCP has acted in good faith.


Well, I agree he’s acted coy and disingenuous about how much this bothered him, and whether or not it was of any import. That’s par for the course. He always acts as if the things critics come up with are stupid and of no import, even when he goes into a frenzy trying to disprove the same things. I grant you that. Now I don’t believe that’s flat-out dishonesty, but, as I said, being coy and disingenuous, a bit of game-playing.

But I do think he’s been up front about the topic of the Watson letters. Again, having studied (as a lay person) about the mechanism of the human brain, and, in particular, how flawed our memories are, and how are brains are really designed to be defense attorneys rather than truth-seekers, it is very easy for me to believe he is not being deliberately deceptive in his statements about the Watson letters. If he were being deliberately deceptive, why in the world would he post that new information from Hamblin? Despite Scott “I drunk some sort of Kool-Aid” Lloyd’s denials otherwise, that subsequent information from Hamblin clearly supports the assertion that DCP’s memory is unreliable. He could have easily not said anything about that additional information – no one would have ever known.

We can agree to disagree on this one. I just like to be cautious with accusations of dishonesty because I’ve been frequently accused of dishonesty by MADdites in the past, and that was a false accusation. Cognitive bias is powerful and tricky.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

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_beastie
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Re: 2nd Watson Letter just found!'

Post by _beastie »

I think he was genuinely confused. See my previous post. Or, it may have been a case of "double-speak". He knew what the scholars concluded, but with 100+ years of GA statements supporting the NY Cumorah view, what could he do? It seems like he was giving one answer to the members, and another to the scholars.


Yeah, it does seem like there are two kinds of answers floating around out there - answers the general members would be likely to hear or access (conference talks, the online scripture study guide) and answers targeted to apologists (these letters). I am really beginning to suspect that the brethren are just trying to pacify the apologists with these statements and have no intention of ever conveying this "official church stance" to the general membership. For the general membership, One Cumorah statements suffice, because anything else will open a Pandora's box. Can you imagine all the chapel Mormons saying "wha???? Why is the church saying that Hill Cumorah might not be Hill Cumorah?" Then they'd get on the internet to find out what the heck is going on, and WHOOPS, that's all she sent, boys.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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_beastie
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Re: 2nd Watson Letter just found!'

Post by _beastie »

You know, I almost feel sorry for them, digging out from this mess. Almost. And except for Scott "folk Mormons are intransigent ignoramuses" Lloyd. It's impossible to feel sorry for that one. :O
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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_Ray A

Re: 2nd Watson Letter just found!'

Post by _Ray A »

beastie wrote:And except for Scott "folk Mormons are intransigent ignoramuses" Lloyd. It's impossible to feel sorry for that one. :O


Scott is the sort of apologist who reminds you why you left Mormonism.
_Yoda

Re: 2nd Watson Letter just found!'

Post by _Yoda »

Ray wrote:Scott is the sort of apologist who reminds you why you left Mormonism.



This is another classic signature possibility, Ray! LOL
_Nimrod
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Re: 2nd Watson Letter just found!'

Post by _Nimrod »

Gadianton has made two spot-on observations this evening.

Also, I expect that Brent Metcalfe will soon deliver the final death blow in Bill Hamblin's integrity as a scholar--repeated references by Hamblin since the publication of his 1993 article that he, Hamblin, received a 4/23/1993 letter from Watson. But it should not be forgotten that it was just this past Saturday when asked by his friend DCP about the 1993 Watson letter and if could have been a fax and from Carla Ogden, Hamblin said it was a letter, not a fax and it was from Watson, not Ogden. That's unequivocal, and according to DCP, Hamblin has just 5 days later impeached himself on that.

Until Brent does so, here's what I can add:

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/topic/ ... 1208761703 wherein DCP stated about three weeks ago (emphasis added by Nimrod):

Here are the facts: Bill Hamblin wrote to the First Presidency for clarification of the earlier letter. I didn't see his request for clarification, but I gather that he suggested some of the reasons why many of us think the question of the location of the final battles remains open, or, even, should probably be answered with "Mesoamerica." I did, however, see Brother Watson's response, on First Presidency letterhead, and I am the editor of the FARMS Review, in which the entire text of that response (apart from the greeting and the signature) was published. My two associate editors of the FARMS Review, George Mitton and Prof. Louis Midgley, also saw it, as did the Review's production editor, Dr. Shirley Ricks, and the Maxwell Institute's director of publications, Alison V. P. Coutts, and at least one source checker.


I will call this the Review quote.

And then earlier this evening (http://www.mormonapologetics.org/topic/ ... 1208775896)
As to why the Journal of Book of Mormon Studies apparently gives the date of the Carla Ogden fax as the date of the letter from Michael Watson, I could not begin to say. I am not, and have never been, the editor of the Journal of Book of Mormon Studies.


This I will call the Journal quote.

Hamblin's 1993 article was published in the Journal, not the Review. So what was DCP saying three weeks ago in the Review quote?

A quick search turned up an article published in the Review (the publication of which DCP is the editor) in 2004, authored by no other than Matthew Roper. It is entitled: Limited Geography and the Book of Mormon: Historical Antecedents and Early Interpretations http://mi.BYU.edu/publications/review/? ... m=2&id=555. Roper wrote:

"The Church emphasizes the doctrinal and historical value of the Book of Mormon, not its geography," agreed Michael Watson, secretary to the First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, in a 1993 statement:

While some Latter-day Saints have looked for possible locations and explanations [for Book of Mormon geography] because the New York Hill Cumorah does not readily fit the Book of Mormon description of Cumorah, there are no conclusive connections between the Book of Mormon text and any specific site.107


and footnote 107:

107. Correspondence from Michael Watson, 23 April 1993, as cited in William J. Hamblin, "Basic Methodological Problems with the Anti-Mormon Approach to the Geography and Archaeology of the Book of Mormon," Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 2/1 (1993): 181.


So DCP is correct today when he says in the Journal quote that "As to why the Journal of Book of Mormon Studies apparently gives the date of the Carla Ogden fax as the date of the letter from Michael Watson, I could not begin to say. I am not, and have never been, the editor of the Journal of Book of Mormon Studies."

DCP was also correct when he said three weeks that the Review too had published the text of the entire Watson response. It was in the 2004 Roper article in the Review. Now, DCP did not explain three weeks ago that the Review editorial staff and fact checker simply verified (back in 2004) as Roper wrote in footnote 107 that the passage being quoted appeared in Hamblin's 1993 Journal article. The editorial verification went further. In giving us the "facts", DCP made clear that as the Review editor, he did see "Brother Watson's response, on First Presidency letterhead". But it just wasn't DCP that missed the pre-1985 date that Hamblin now claims for the quoted Watson letter. It was no less than 5 other Review editors and fact checkers that missed this same fact. When giving us those "facts" three weeks ago, he explained that
My two associate editors of the FARMS Review, George Mitton and Prof. Louis Midgley, also saw it, as did the Review's production editor, Dr. Shirley Ricks, and the Maxwell Institute's director of publications, Alison V. P. Coutts, and at least one source checker.
In addition to these 5, DCP brings the total to 6 at the Review that saw the letter but missed the fact that Roper's article put the date on the Watson letter from which the quote is drawn as 4/23/1993 rather than what both DCP and Hamblin today claim was pre-1985.

Either DCP and 5 others each missed that date discrepancy in his or her review in 2004 (no memory fade excuse for this), or Hamblin (with DCP in supportive tow once again) is fabricating this pre-1985 date for the Watson letter after now at least 5 days of contemplating, stewing and reconstructing his memory about it while in Europe. Either way, this is quite disconcerting for FARMS that would like to pass itself off as both scholarly and credible.

I cannot wait for Scott Lloyd and Calmoriah to start the spinning of this. Maybe there were gremlins in the FARMS offices that in 2004 that magically changed the date on the Watson letter from pre-1985 to 4/23/1993 just before DCP and the five reviewed it--and so once again, we will have a reasonable explanation, a likely one, a probable one, etc. to self-delusion. (oops, sorry again, Dr. Shades and moderators, sorry for this slip into the MADHouse spinning mode again.)
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_harmony
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Re: 2nd Watson Letter just found!'

Post by _harmony »

So was Watson just throwing them a bone?
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Questions4FARMS
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Re: 2nd Watson Letter just found!'

Post by _Questions4FARMS »

harmony wrote:So was Watson just throwing them a bone?


FARMS got Watson on board in April 1993, pointing out to him the 'Cumorah' entry in the 1992 EoM, and then fed him the verbiage that Watson threw back at FARMS via the Ogden Fax. A 'bone'--IMO, yes, but more so to give his Masters plausible deniability either way. If science proves out the Book of Mormon Cumorah fits in New York, then the FP can point to the 10/16/1990 Watson letter, dismissing the Ogden Fax as not authoritative ('not even signed' much less from anyone privy to the doctrinal discussions of the Brethren'). On the other hand, if science proves out the Book of Mormon Cumorah definitively cannot fit in New York, then the FP can point to the Ogden Fax as no-geography has been the position of the FP back to at least April 1993. It's a nice tactic to have the 4/23/1993 letter to be of lesser authority and provenance than the 10/16/1990 Watson letter. It gives the FP the opportunity to zig or zag, whatever becomes necessary or at least convenient. in my opinion, throwing FARMS a bone was only an incidental effect of it from Watson's perspective.
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_Brent Metcalfe
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Re: 2nd Watson Letter just found!'

Post by _Brent Metcalfe »

Hi Ray,

Thanks for your thoughts on this topic.


Ray A wrote:
The EOM quotes Palmer's In Search of Cumorah, which was published in 1981. (A book I read, incidentally.)

See also: http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon ... ncy_Letter

So the EOM entry actually comes from In Search of Cumorah (and is probably what Watson used pre-1985).



Please note that entries in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism were often original contributions by specific authors (I personally know several of the contributors). On the "Cumorah" entry, I'm unaware of any sentences in D. Palmer's first edition of In Search of Cumorah: New Evidences of the Book of Mormon from Ancient Mexico (1981—two other editions were published in 1992 and 1999) that correspond to the parallel sentences between the EoM and Ms. Ogden's fax to Brent Hall. If you disagree, I welcome your correction.

All the best,

</brent>

http://mormonscripturestudies.com
(© 2009 Brent Lee Metcalfe. All rights reserved.)
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The thesis of inspiration may not be invoked to guarantee historicity, for a divinely inspired story is not necessarily history.
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