ScienceWhopper:Natural History According to Jeffrey Holland

[_Hoops]

Sorry, meant to respond to your other one. Sec.

The only answer that works (as science does not support any viable solutions): MAGIC (divine intervention).

Typical.

[_Hoops]

How did 2 to 7 of any of the animal species produce viable populations of their relative species.

The Bible says nothing about species, it refers to kinds. From the Biblical record, do you know what that is? Because I don't.

Especially in the face of carnivores eating the herbivores.

There were no carnivores before the flood.

There would have been no terrestrial plants left after a global flood of the magnitude of what is described in Genesis.

No water plants? No plants able to exist in the water for a time?

How did the humans establish a viable population from 4 mating pairs? Especially to the point where the estimated human population at the time of Abraham is 25-27 million.

I don't know. Apparently you don't either.

From 4 pairs to 25-27 million in that time span (350 years or so) would have required a birth rate of over 100%. A rate not even close to achievable today.

Why should that surprise you since people lived for hundreds of years before the flood?

[_Hoops]

Estimates show that it would have taken 20-30K people 20 or so years to build the great pyramid at Giza. The tower of Babel could have been no less of an undertaking, and would have been around 150 or so years after the flood.

How do you go from 8 to 20K in 150 years?

Okay, so you would prefer to rely on estimates, that's fine. Still, people lived a lot longer for a few generations after the flood.

There are also between 1 to 100 million different species of beetle:

Taking the current known species of beetles, 400K, how do you fit 400K pairs of beetles into the ark, and their associated food requirements along with the 5000 pairs of the known frog species? Perhaps the better question is how do you round up pairs of the 400k species of beetles to get them onto the ark in the first place?

Who said they were on the ark? The Biblical record tells us that the animals (and people) that were destroyed were the ones with "the breath of life."

Was the ark some kind of extradimensional construct with more volume on the inside than on the outside?

This comment indicates your genuine level of interest in a real discussion

[_Hoops]

Which book? The Bible only says he took 7 of the clean beast and 2 of the unclean. Doesn't mention how they arrived at Noah's local from 1000s of miles away. Is that your point? That I am making suppositions?

Well, let's remember that The LORD was the one who shut the door on the ark. So it would seem that Noah had some pretty significant help.

Ok by most accounts Noah was on the Ark for 360-370 days. Sticking with just the major African cat species you had at least: lions, cheetahs, leopards, caracals and servals. What did they eat? As soon as they eat a member of one of the other species, it went extinct.

Again, there were no carnivores before the ark.

Did they become vegetarians? For how long after the flood did they remain vegetarians allowing the herbivores to repopulate?

I don't know. Why is the Bible required to tell us?

Am I supposed to just turn of my mind to the hows and believe the scant Biblical narrative?

No. Not at all. But neither are you supposed to dismiss out of hand a supernatural explanation. If one believe in God or a god, then it's reasonable to believe that this "god" would interact with "his/her" creation.

Ok backing away from the minutia and looking at the big picture. By the biblical account 99.9999999% of all terrestrial life died in the flood. Where is the detritus?

I don't know. The Bible doesn't tell us. Should it?

I get it................ since the Bible says it occurred, it did. End of sentence, no more thought necessary. You don't need any details. Once the prophet has spoken the thinking is done. So you have surrendered your capacity to think.

Arrogant bluster, as usual. No, that's not what we're saying. I AM saying that for you to criticize the Biblical account you should first know what it is. You clearly don't.

[_Hoops]

Let's try another one.

In order to flood the Earth to a depth of 30K feet or so (depth needed to cover Mt. Everest) you would need 4.5 billion cubic kilometers of water. Total combined volume for the worlds oceans 1.3 billion cubic kilometers.

Where did the extra water come from and where did it go?

Who says it needed to cover mnt. everest? There are Biblical indications that the earth and its atmosphere was dramatically different post flood from pre.

[Guest]

Why should that surprise you since people lived for hundreds of years before the flood?

Hoops,

You just keep making this stuff up as you go along. One never knows what you are going to come up with next.

Here is an evidence based listing of human life expectancies in different eras of human existence. As you can see, never in all of human history have they been as long as they are today.


Era Life Expectancy at Birth(years) Comment

Upper Paleolithic 33 At age 15, life expectancy an additional 39 years (total age 54).[8][9]

Neolithic[10] 20

Bronze Age and Iron Age[11] 26

Classical Greece[12] 28

Classical Rome[12] 28 At age 15, life expectancy an additional 37 years (total age 52).

Pre-Columbian North America[13] 25-30

Medieval Islamic Caliphate[14] 35+

Medieval Britain[15][16] 30 At age 21, life expectancy an additional 43 years (total age 64).[17]

Early Modern Britain[11][18] 25-40

Early 20th Century[19][20] 31

Current world average[21] 67.2 2010 est.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy

[_Hoops]

Why should that surprise you since people lived for hundreds of years before the flood?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy

What does this have to do with the Biblical record?

[Guest]

Explain without a miracle, divine intervention or magic, how a the ecology of the planet rebounds after being destroyed. The Earth was under water for around 100 days, how there is any eco-systems left once they disembark? The Bible very explicitly states that all terrestrial life was destroyed "every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth."

And don't tell me that it was a local flood. That is not supported by the narrative.

Genesis 7:4
For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

The Bible states that everything was inundated to at least a depth of 15 cubits over the highest point on the planet. Terrestrial plants do not survive being submerged for 100 days, so without divine intervention "rebooting" the ecology of the planet, they would have disembarked to an muddy wasteland. The vast majority of terrestrial plant species are gone, and even a good portion of marine life is now dead due to sediment in the water, changes in the salinity of the water, changes in water temperature, their breeding grounds now being subject to different light and pressure condition, etc.

Genesis 7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.

7:20Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

Please explain without my "typical" answer of magic, how the ecology of the planet recovers sufficiently to support life, to the point that within 150 or so years there are enough people to build a massive tower reaching for the heavens.

Also please explain how there is not a piece of geographical evidence to support a global flood. There should be a readily apparent global wide band of dead stuff demonstrable to have occurred in the last 10K years.

Next, where does the Bible state that there were no carnivores before the flood? No where. And then for them to suddenly become carnivores requires a complete reworking of their physiology (magic). You as Frank before you are adding to the narrative of the Bible. You accuse me of not knowing the biblical record and then state that there were no carnivores before the flood?

CFR please.

[_Jersey Girl]

Hoops

No water plants? No plants able to exist in the water for a time?

I think you're forgetting that the plants (I'm assuming that you're arguing Global) would have had to survive in SALT water, Hoops.

[_DrW]

Let's try another one.

In order to flood the Earth to a depth of 30K feet or so (depth needed to cover Mt. Everest) you would need 4.5 billion cubic kilometers of water. Total combined volume for the worlds oceans 1.3 billion cubic kilometers.

Where did the extra water come from and where did it go?

Who says it needed to cover mnt. everest? There are Biblical indications that the earth and its atmosphere was dramatically different post flood from pre.

And what would those "indications" be?

How do you think the Earth's atmosphere was "dramatically different" before the (imaginary) flood?

A "dramatically" different atmosphere would mean dramatically different life forms, or no life at all.