"Live by the lamp of their own conceit"

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_harmony
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Re: "Live by the lamp of their own conceit"

Post by _harmony »

Trevor wrote:Although my ancestors all crossed the plains before the completion of the railroad, I have no lineal ancestors who were among the Book of Mormon witnesses, members of the 12, the First Presidency, or their families, etc. Am I really that much of a rarity?


My husband's family is in the same non-Mormon Royalty boat. Of course, he got what he deserved: a convert for a wife. The closest he comes is being related to the first bishop of Bountiful. Of course, the guy was sent to Bountiful because he pissed off Brigham, but hey! It's a connection!
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Trevor
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Re: "Live by the lamp of their own conceit"

Post by _Trevor »

harmony wrote:My husband's family is in the same non-Mormon Royalty boat. Of course, he got what he deserved: a convert for a wife. The closest he comes is being related to the first bishop of Bountiful. Of course, the guy was sent to Bountiful because he pissed off Brigham, but hey! It's a connection!


My patriarchal line goes back to a fellow who was sent off to settle Manti and then was killed by Native Americans at Fountain Green on his way up to General Conference. He didn't wait like Isaac Morley, his priesthood leader, had told him to do.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_Trevor
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Re: "Live by the lamp of their own conceit"

Post by _Trevor »

harmony wrote:Of course, he got what he deserved: a convert for a wife.


Hey, don't knock convert wives. Those old-time polygamists were upset if the young missionaries didn't let them have a chance with the converts. Back in the day, they were quite the hot commodity!
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: "Live by the lamp of their own conceit"

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

harmony wrote:Now, it looks like Rollo has established a tendency for those Brethren who actually can establish a connection to the founding fathers to publicize that connection, somewhat to Daniel's chagrin.

I feel no chagrin whatsoever. None.

Nor do I see any dishonorable "publicizing" of ancestors going on among the Brethren.

I'm proud of my non-Mormon non-royalty father's achievements, of his life, and of his character. I speak of him from time to time, not only to my children but even to others. I'm trying to ensure that knowledge about him will survive in the family. I enjoy visiting places associated with his life. I see nothing wrong with this. If I had a great-great-grandfather of any note -- as it is, I know only dates and names -- I would make every effort, as part of a family legacy, to pass something about him on to my children. I've spent considerable time tracking down information about my mother's early life in St. George, talking to people who know the history of the town, etc. I've visited the farm in Norway that my paternal grandmother came from, and have met with the relatives who still own it and with the other relatives who live around that alpine lake (Jølstervatn). A photograph of the Lutheran church she attended as a little girl hangs on a wall in my house, as do handicrafts from the area and reproductions of landscape paintings by a prominent Norwegian artist who grew up and worked there,

I think that a certain degree of piety toward one's ancestors is not only not bad, but positively good.

That Elder Oaks takes a special interest in Martin Harris is, to my mind, both understandable and harmless. In fact, I find it commendable. That Elder Ballard is proud of his family connections and of the achievements of his ancestors also seems to me perfectly normal and fine. And, since both Elder Ballard's ancestors and collateral relatives and Elder Oaks's relative are of general interest to believing, mainsteam members of the Church, I see nothing wrong with their talking about those relatives from time to time. Quite the contrary.

But I find it simply absurd to suppose that Elder Oaks owes his position in the Twelve, in any degree whatever, to a recognition on the part of the Brethren that, through his mother, he's a distant relative of Martin Harris.

harmony wrote:People who are connected with Mormon Royalty are proud of it... and those who aren't are reminded often of their lack.

If that was ever significantly true as a general rule -- I don't doubt for a moment that it was occasionally so -- it's far less common now. I don't believe that I've ever in my life encountered any suggestion that I'm less of a Mormon because my father converted only late in his life and my mother wasn't of Mormon aristocratic stock.

And in a Church led by such people as Thomas Monson, who grew up in a very non-royal family in a non-elite neighborhood of Salt Lake City, and Dieter F. Uchtdorf, who was born in Nazi-occupied Bohemia and whose family converted to Mormonism when his grandmother met a Church member in line at a soup kitchen, it isn't clear that connections to old elite Mormon families are growing in importance.

harmony wrote:This is the kind of "culture" I'd like to see squashed and squashed hard from the GC pulpit. Being reminded of my lack of familial connections to the founders repeatedly by my local ward family every summer when we bring out the ancestor worship in July is bad enough

I'm beginning to understand why the Brethren avoid your region like the plague. It sounds very evil.

harmony wrote:being reminded of it by my leaders from the GC pulpit is an insult.

I listen to the same sessions of General Conference. I think you're seeking insults.

harmony wrote:I am a convert. There are thousands, if not millions, like me. Without me and people like me, this church dies. Yet I have my nose rubbed in the fact that I am a first-generation member, that I am somehow LESS because I have no connection to the founders, by my leaders?

You seem to be asking a question. The answer is No. You don't.
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: "Live by the lamp of their own conceit"

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

My father was a convert. (I baptized him; my brother confirmed him.) My brother's wife is a convert.

I didn't realize I was supposed to look down on them.

I keep learning new things here. Thanks!
_LifeOnaPlate
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Re: "Live by the lamp of their own conceit"

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

I can't recall ever hearing anyone referred to as "Mormon royalty."
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: "Live by the lamp of their own conceit"

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

LifeOnaPlate wrote:I can't recall ever hearing anyone referred to as "Mormon royalty."

It's just so natural to you that you don't even hear it. It's like the air that you breathe or, if you were a fish, like the water in which you live.

Are you, or are you not, the direct great-great-grandnephew of the fourth cousin twice-removed of the wife of Zebedee Coltrin's next-door neighbor's checkers partner?

Don't try to deny it.

We all know it. Did you really imagine that you wear purple robes for nothing?
_LifeOnaPlate
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Re: "Live by the lamp of their own conceit"

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

On my mission I came across the name of one Elder Hodges while reading through the History of the Church. Imagine my initial delight, only to find Elder Hodges being excommunicated a few pages later. And my further shame when I discovered there was no relation.

My ward asked me to return my company car.






SDDSDSSDSDSDSD
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_Jason Bourne
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Re: "Live by the lamp of their own conceit"

Post by _Jason Bourne »

People who are connected with Mormon Royalty are proud of it... and those who aren't are reminded often of their lack. (See Rollo's comments above). This is the kind of "culture" I'd like to see squashed and squashed hard from the GC pulpit. Being reminded of my lack of familial connections to the founders repeatedly by my local ward family every summer when we bring out the ancestor worship in July is bad enough; being reminded of it by my leaders from the GC pulpit is an insult. I am a convert. There are thousands, if not millions, like me. Without me and people like me, this church dies. Yet I have my nose rubbed in the fact that I am a first-generation member, that I am somehow LESS because I have no connection to the founders, by my leaders?



Well I am fifth generation LDS on all sides. My English family joined the Church in England and immigrated in the late 1850's. My family on the Danish side joined in Denmark and immigrated in the 1850s. My great grandfather Neilsen built a mill in Bicknel Utah that still stands and is historical marked site now. Oh and through various lines I even had a few relatives cross the plains. But I am not connected to any GAs. Just run of the mill Mormons.


But another great grandpa was a tailor in Spanish Fork. A family story tells that one time BY was passing through and stopped to see my my distant relative. He was sporting a suit that he had just made. Brigham liked the suit and complimented my great grandpa. Being about the same size as Brigham and being pleased with the compliment my great grandpa gave BY the very suit. So, if I am ever called to be a GA I guess I have a connection. I am in the inner circle. I can then state "That bribe finally paid off!!! Thanks Gramps!"
_harmony
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Re: "Live by the lamp of their own conceit"

Post by _harmony »

Daniel Peterson wrote:But I find it simply absurd to suppose that Elder Oaks owes his position in the Twelve, in any degree whatever, to a recognition on the part of the Brethren that, through his mother, he's a distant relative of Martin Harris.


I didn't say he did. What I said was, being connected to Mormon Royalty is a badge of honor some people take to extremes. It adds to the Rock Star environment in which the Brethren exist, and which they do nothing to disrupt.

See #6 on my list.

If that was ever significantly true as a general rule -- I don't doubt for a moment that it was occasionally so -- it's far less common now. I don't believe that I've ever in my life encountered any suggestion that I'm less of a Mormon because my father converted only late in his life and my mother wasn't of Mormon aristocratic stock.


My children can make the same claim.

And in a Church led by such people as Thomas Monson, who grew up in a very non-royal family in a non-elite neighborhood of Salt Lake City, and Dieter F. Uchtdorf, who was born in Nazi-occupied Bohemia and whose family converted to Mormonism when his grandmother met a Church member in line at a soup kitchen, it isn't clear that connections to old elite Mormon families are growing in importance.


See #6. When it happens, I'll be sure to let you know.

I'm beginning to understand why the Brethren avoid your region like the plague. It sounds very evil.


Not evil. Just full of people who draw lines in the sand with the purpose of excluding folks like me. And where do they learn this behavior? From our leaders.

When I got married, one of the Mormon Royalty in my ward told my intended husband he could do better than marrying a convert, his family having been in the church almost since the beginning. A fine welcome to the ward, yes?

harmony wrote:being reminded of it by my leaders from the GC pulpit is an insult.

I listen to the same sessions of General Conference. I think you're seeking insults.


Actually they seem to follow me around. It does no good to put up an argument either; they aren't interested in my DAR membership.

Church leaders are kinda like the parents here. We always know what is being said around the dining room table, because the kids don't think up things that insulting by themselves. That's why I cringe when I hear one of the Brethren bragging about his pioneer roots; I know it simply cements the idea that those with pioneer roots are "better" than those of us who are converts in the members of my ward.

You seem to be asking a question. The answer is No. You don't.


No, I don't what? Have my nose rubbed in my lesserness, whenever one of the Brethren praises his pioneer roots? Allow me to know what I know, and to point out what you don't know; and you don't know jack about this.

See #6.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
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