KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

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_wenglund
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Re: KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

Post by _wenglund »

Kevin Graham wrote: I already told you. Joseph Smith said he was working on an Alphabet/Grammar of the Egyptian Language. The "purpose" was obviously to have a Rosetta Stone of sorts for what was considered to be a lost language; a language that Joseph Smith felt was synonymous with, or very close to the original "pure language." That was his intention. Nowhere in any historical account is there any indication, explicit or implicit, that he was doing anything else here, especially a silly "enciphering" project that makes not a lick of sense.


It is interesting that you compared the KEP to the Rosetta Stone, and then went on to suggest that the KEP had nothing to do with ciphering, given this description of the stone: "As the first known bilingual text, the Rosetta Stone aroused wide public interest with its potential to decipher the hitherto untranslated ancient Egyptian languages....Major advances in the decoding were:....Prior to the discovery of the Rosetta Stone and its eventual decipherment, there had been no understanding of the ancient Egyptian language and script since shortly before the fall of the Roman Empire....Later attempts at deciphering hieroglyphs were made by Arab historians in medieval Egypt during the 9th and 10th centuries....The term Rosetta stone has been used idiomatically to represent a crucial key to the process of decryption of encoded information, especially when a small but representative sample is recognised as the clue to understanding a larger whole...An almost literal use of the phrase appears in popular fiction within H. G. Wells' 1933 novel The Shape of Things to Come, where the protagonist finds a manuscript written in shorthand [a stenographic cipher] that provides a key to understanding additional scattered material that is sketched out in both longhand and on typewriter " (Rosetta Stone--emphasis mine)

This comparison also raises a number of questions, but I will save them for now. You have been kind enough to answer two of my recent questions, for which I am grateful.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
"Why should I care about being consistent?" --Mister Scratch (MD, '08)
_Kevin Graham
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Re: KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

Post by _Kevin Graham »

No wade, I said it had nothing to do with "enciphering!" Ciphering, deciphering and enciphering are three different things, but you knew this, right?

To decipher, which basically means "to make out the meaning of something" only pertains to ciphers when used within that context, but in the context of languages it is pretty much synonymous with "translating." Hence, it isn't really surprising nor is it inappropriate that the Rosetta Stone is said to help us "decipher" the Egyptian language.

As I pointed out before, ciphers are only ciphers when a "cipher key" exists. A cipher key is basically a system of deciphering a code that once known, makes it easy for anyone to decipher a hidden message. Any enciphering project first begins with the development of a cipher key. Will illustrated how this works with Masonic ciphers. Once you saw the systematic removal or addition of a side or dot in a cube, you could easily figure out what each represented. Likewise, in your previous example of the ROT13 cipher, all one needed to do was understand the cipher key, which is essentially this:

Image

In another example of a common cipher, the Caesar cipher essentially scoots down each letter three spaces, so the cipher key would be something like:

Image

The KEP provides nothing that could reasonably be understood as a "cipher key," by which all future encoding could be deciphered. On the contrary, the thing took on multiple levels of "parts" and "degrees" that made every little dot and slash take on meanings consisting of not only multiple words, but also multiple sentences. Nudge a slash by a fraction of a degree and suddenly the "meaning" becomes a different sentence entirely. Will doesn't share any of this with his listeners because he knows that once they understand this, his chances of successfully selling the "enciphering" theory, take a nosedive south. The idea of enciphering would be ludicrous to anyone familiar with how ciphers worked, and the early Mormons, most of whom were familar with Masonry, were entirely familiar with how they worked. So to suggest they were so ignorant of ciphers that they engaged in enciphering before realizing their "system" was too complex for practical usage, thus they all threw their hands up and said "to hell with this," is just another reason why Will's is a weak theory. It relies on too many implausible scenarios.

Moreover, Ciphers do not have an "alphabet" let alone a "grammar," nor do they typically involve "sounds." You might find a couple of examples where some groups over the span of a few thousand years decided to attribute sounds to cipher symbols, but these are exceptions, not the rule. And before you can be taken seriously, you still have to explain why an "alphabet and grammar" are better explained as cipher and not language! Your claim that languages and ciphers synonymous is ridiculous. They aren't synonymous. A cipher is a means by which a language is kept hidden from others who understand said language. Portuguese and English are languages. I can decipher Portuguese into English but this doesn't mean Portuguese was designed to keep secret things that were written in English. And I couldn't use a simple "cipher key" to translate Portuguese. Instead, I'd have to actually learn the "alphabet and grammar" of that language, along with all its distinctive phonetics. I laugh every time my football players from Brazil try using Google translator to send me messages in English. Half the time they end up sending messages saying the opposite of that which they are trying to convey. It simply doesn't work as well as it should because languages are far more complex than ciphers, and everything about the KEP reeks of complexity. The "English explanations" present in the KEP smack of translation, not enciphering. For instance, a cipher wouldn't "explain" the symbol representing 19 as "ten and nine." That sounds more like a literal translation from one language to another. In fact, that is precisely how we literally translate "nineteen" in Portuguese, which is dezenove.

dez = 10
e = and
nove = 9

In a cipher there is no reason to call 19, "ten and nine." You'd keep it short and simple as "nineteen." But Joseph Smith's explanation as "ten and nine" makes it perfectly clear to language professors that he was translating (or deciphering if you prefer) from one language, not enciphering into a code.

On the whole, sounds within ciphers were very rare. But why even go down that bunny trail when we already know that "alphabet/grammar/phonetics," all three of these elements best fit within the model of translating one language to another? The fact that Joseph Smith repeatedly claimed to be "translating" (i.e deciphering) documents during this project is enough to refute the enciphering theory and go with the translation theory. Will's theory is the weakest explanation from every possible angle.
_CaliforniaKid
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Re: KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

Post by _CaliforniaKid »

wenglund wrote:No. My reasoning is that the KEP sounds could not be used to translate what was written on the papyri, and for that reason one may conclude that the KEP were not intended as a key to translate the papyri.

I see. I'm pretty sure that no one here, least of all myself, is claiming that the sole purpose of the KEP was to serve as a tool for translating Egyptian text into English text. If that had been the only purpose, it could have been done quite easily and without the aid of any alphabet or grammar. The purpose, rather, was to learn, understand, and employ the principles of ancient Egyptian language in translating the Book of Abraham and other ancient Egyptian texts. In other words, Joseph and his scribes valued understanding of the language as an end in itself. It's not unlike the Protestant habit-- taken up by Joseph Smith in December 1835-- of going to seminary and learning Greek and Hebrew, even though there are dozens of good Bible translations available. The theory is that the person who can read the scriptures in the the original languages will be able to pick up on nuances that a translation cannot convey.

I think you may be in plentiful company in not correctly understanding my argument and not understanding that in some respects, ciphers are languages, and are manifest in various forms (written, oral, and visual).

Yes, in some respects languages are ciphers and ciphers are languages. And yes, both ciphers and languages can take many forms. But this is all really beside the point, Wade. The question is not whether the KEP could possibly in some universe have been intended as a cipher, but whether they were, in fact, historically intended as such in the minds of their authors. There is no evidence that they were, and to interpret them as such actually requires a highly counterintuitive and improbable reading of the evidence. I wouldn't go too far down the rabbit hole of cipher-history before establishing at least the basic historical plausibility of the interpretation.

if you read my paper

What paper?

Peace,

-Chris
_beastie
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Re: KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

Post by _beastie »

No wonder you cretins are incapable of grasping Will's thesis. You are black and white fundamentalists who don't understand that "translate" really means "put words down on paper" and "cipher" just means "working with a foreign language." And on top of all that, you have psychological issues. Wade is just a saint to continue trying to get through your fundamentalist blinders. No wonder Will refuses to even try to engage you bunch of snake-handlers!

by the way, anyone else notice how short-lived Mortal Man's thread has been thus far?

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/topic/ ... d-scrolls/

I guess it's taking Will a while to work up some bluster that will divert everyone's attention from MM's devastating points. If only MM were a woman, then Will could tell him that he doesn't want to see him naked. That would solve the problem.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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_beastie
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Re: KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

Post by _beastie »

One more thing: I've alluded to this before, but I'm hoping now someone will directly answer this question:

Did or did not Nibley recognize that there were nonEgyptian characters on the KEP?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Kishkumen
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Re: KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

Post by _Kishkumen »

sock puppet wrote:
Kishkumen wrote:Yes, it is fiction. Much of the Bible is also fiction.

Sort of reminds me of the marketing for the Blair Witch Project.


LOL. Good one, SP.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_wenglund
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Re: KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

Post by _wenglund »

Mortal Man wrote:
wenglund wrote:Would you say that Mortal Man is essentially proposing that the purpose of the KEP (or at least the EA and GAEL) was to translate the Book of Abraham from the papyri?

No.
I would say that that was part of the initial purpose.


What do you believe was the other part of the initial purpose?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
"Why should I care about being consistent?" --Mister Scratch (MD, '08)
_wenglund
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Re: KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

Post by _wenglund »

CaliforniaKid wrote:I see. I'm pretty sure that no one here, least of all myself, is claiming that the sole purpose of the KEP was to serve as a tool for translating Egyptian text into English text.


Critics have, however, claimed that the KEP was, in part, intended to translate the papyri into English. To me, the existence of sounds in the KEP, particularly where there are sounds but no explanations, mitigates against the KEP's intent, in part, as a tool to translate the papyri.

If that had been the only purpose, it could have been done quite easily and without the aid of any alphabet or grammar.


And so it was. :)

The purpose, rather, was to learn, understand, and employ the principles of ancient Egyptian language in translating the Book of Abraham and other ancient Egyptian texts. In other words, Joseph and his scribes valued understanding of the language as an end in itself.


Apart from the "translate the Book of Abraham", this is how I viewed the KEP up until hearing Will's presentation. And, I would probably still hold to that position were I not to have discovered that many of the KEP characters were not on the papyri and were not Egyptian, and were likely known to be non-Egyptian. As I see it, neither Phelps nor Joseph would think they could better understand Egyptian using non-Egyptian characters and non-Egyptian sounds. Reason then suggests that there must have been some other purpose for the KEP than translation or learning the Egyptian language.

But, I am not completely opposed to the "learn the language" intent--even given its secular rather than religious genre. It is possible that Phelps and Joseph may have thought the characters were Egyptian regardless of the various non-papyri places from whence the characters may have been derived.

It's not unlike the Protestant habit-- taken up by Joseph Smith in December 1835-- of going to seminary and learning Greek and Hebrew, even though there are dozens of good Bible translations available. The theory is that the person who can read the scriptures in the the original languages will be able to pick up on nuances that a translation cannot convey.


I know. I once advocated that position.

What paper?


It is attached to this post at MaDB:

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/topic/ ... 1208902830

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
"Why should I care about being consistent?" --Mister Scratch (MD, '08)
_beastie
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Re: KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

Post by _beastie »

beastie wrote:One more thing: I've alluded to this before, but I'm hoping now someone will directly answer this question:

Did or did not Nibley recognize that there were nonEgyptian characters on the KEP?


Although I haven't had time to read the entire paper, and likely will not do so tonight, a quick skim revealed that yes, Nibley knew there were nonEgyptian characters used on the KEP. And yet he still believed it served as a Rosetta Stone, reverse engineered. Go figure. What a dummy.

http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/publica ... ts/?id=121
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_William Schryver
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Re: KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

Post by _William Schryver »

CK:
The purpose, rather, was to learn, understand, and employ the principles of ancient Egyptian language in translating the Book of Abraham and other ancient Egyptian texts. In other words, Joseph and his scribes valued understanding of the language as an end in itself.

An interesting speculation.

Wouldn't it be great if there were actually some evidence to support it? Then you'd really be on to something, huh?
... every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol ...
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