Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

[Guest]

Wrong on all accounts. Being “preserved” does not mean that they were the original “autographs”. It means that they were genuine, faithful, authentic reproductions of them. How far removed from the original or first autograph is not an issue. As long as they were faithful reproductions, they were as good as the original or first autograph.

"Wong on all accounts" based on what? Based on your assumptions that there were no originals in the hand of Abraham and that his family line didn't preserve their most precious scrolls? So you say that I'm wrong and you're right based on your assumption that the most important scrolls pertaining to priesthood and astronomy were not preserved? Your position is very weak, zerinus.

It makes perfect sense to assume that Abraham's grandparents preserved their family records. Fine paper imported from Egypt (papyrus) was a good medium to preserve important records and as such could last hundreds or even thousands of years if kept in the right environment. There were also clay tablets that could keep for thousands of years.

It makes perfect sense to assume that Abraham's great grandfather passed his records down to his son, and so on, and so on. No need to just toss them into the fire and make new ones. Why would they do that to the memory of their fathers whom they so regarded with upright respect? Isn't that a bit disrespectful? No, they held on to the records for dear life because they were the precious records of their fathers.

This business of copies of copies is an old apologetic trick created by Mormon apologists who loath the papyrus that was returned to the church in 1967 and have a hard time accepting the Explanations of the Facsimiles.

Preserving the original autographs and scrolls of the ancient fathers was really no trick. The family library was the place to put them. A cedar chest, perhaps. The basement of a mud house might do just fine.

Oh, zerinus, you really are a stiffnecked Mormon.

[_Shulem]

Because he was a prophet, and also knew and trusted the pedigree of their transmission.

According to the story, Abraham's father Terah was an idolater and an apostate of the ancient tradition. So it stands to reason he was NOT making any copies of copies for Abraham's use. Abraham must have had records that predated his father. It also stands to reason that his grandfather simply had the records his father gave him. You know, the stuff about priesthood and astronomy?

Records passed from father to son in the patriarchal order is pretty much in keeping with the storyline created by Joseph Smith. Consider this:

1. Metal plates - Preserved - Father to son - original autograph
2. Scrolls - Preserved - Father to son - original autograph
3. Tablets - Preserved - Father to son - original autograph

All this is in keeping with Joseph Smith's narratives as he was the author of both the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham.

[_Shulem]

The Book Of Abraham destroys all truth claims of the Church, leaving just the community benefits and the centrally held me misused €billions.

Just imagine missionaries knocking on doors with a Book of Abraham door approach using Facsimile No. 3:

Good day, sir.

I'm Elder Smith and this is elder Cowdery and we represent The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and would like to share an important message with you and your family.

We would like to tell about how a modern prophet translated some ancient Egyptian papyrus before Egyptologists could. See here, this is the Facsimile No. 3 and here are the correct Explanations and translations given by the prophet and translator, Joseph Smith.

I bear you my testimony, sir, that the Explanations are true and correct, genuine translations of the Egyptian into English and the whole record bears testimony of father Abraham and the coming of Christ.

Sir, as representatives of the restored church of Jesus Christ, we invite you to pray about this and ask God if these things are not true. If you will pray in faith and be willing to do what God tells you to do he will manifest to you that these things are true by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Sir, will you pray and ask God if the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 are true?

[_Shulem]

Being “preserved” does not mean that they were the original “autographs

Nor does it necessarily mean that they are copies of copies.

Consider all the evidence and context of the whole Book of Abraham saga and then make a reasonable determination on what preserve refers to. I think you will find that "preserve" (according to Joseph Smith) meant that the records survived intact.

I did that. Can you, zerinus, will you?

[_zerinus]

Nor does it necessarily mean that they are copies of copies.

Consider all the evidence and context of the whole Book of Abraham saga and then make a reasonable determination on what preserve refers to. I think you will find that "preserve" (according to Joseph Smith) meant that the records survived intact.

I did that. Can you, zerinus, will you?

According to Mormon revelation (which you obviously don't believe, and I don't care whether you do or not), all the ancient patriarchs, going as far back as Adam, kept sacred records which was transmitted to future generations:

Moses 6:

4 And then began these men to call upon the name of the Lord, and the Lord blessed them;
5 And a book of remembrance was kept, in the which was recorded, in the language of Adam, for it was given unto as many as called upon God to write by the spirit of inspiration;
6 And by them their children were taught to read and write, having a language which was pure and undefiled.
7 Now this same Priesthood, which was in the beginning, shall be in the end of the world also.
8 Now this prophecy Adam spake, as he was moved upon by the Holy Ghost, and a genealogy was kept of the children of God. And this was the book of the generations of Adam, saying: In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

This record was obviously preserved by Noah, a copy of which was taken by the Jaredites across the sea as they migrated to the promised land:

Ether 8:

8 Now the daughter of Jared being exceedingly expert, and seeing the sorrows of her father, thought to devise a plan whereby she could redeem the kingdom unto her father.
9 Now the daughter of Jared was exceedingly fair. And it came to pass that she did talk with her father, and said unto him: Whereby hath my father so much sorrow? Hath he not read the record which our fathers brought across the great deep? Behold, is there not an account concerning them of old, that they by their secret plans did obtain kingdoms and great glory?

Abraham also evidently had a copy of this record, which is referred to here:

Abraham 1:

31 But the records of the fathers, even the patriarchs, concerning the right of Priesthood, the Lord my God preserved in mine own hands; therefore a knowledge of the beginning of the creation, and also of the planets, and of the stars, as they were made known unto the fathers, have I kept even unto this day, and I shall endeavor to write some of these things upon this record, for the benefit of my posterity that shall come after me.

So they all kept records in ancient times; and there is no point in keeping sacred records if you are going to just keep it for yourself. The idea is to disseminate it among as many people as can benefit from it, which in those days meant copying it by hand. There was no print in those days, so that is the only way that it could be done. So if Abraham wrote a book "by his own hands," and that book carried that inscription at the head of it, and each subsequent copy faithfully preserved that inscription, does that mean that hundredth copy down the line was literally, physically written by the hand of Abraham?

[_Shulem]

According to Mormon revelation (which you obviously don't believe, and I don't care whether you do or not), all the ancient patriarchs, going as far back as Adam, kept sacred records which was transmitted to future generations:

Moses 6:

4 And then began these men to call upon the name of the Lord, and the Lord blessed them;
5 And a book of remembrance was kept, in the which was recorded, in the language of Adam, for it was given unto as many as called upon God to write by the spirit of inspiration;
6 And by them their children were taught to read and write, having a language which was pure and undefiled.
7 Now this same Priesthood, which was in the beginning, shall be in the end of the world also.
8 Now this prophecy Adam spake, as he was moved upon by the Holy Ghost, and a genealogy was kept of the children of God. And this was the book of the generations of Adam, saying: In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

According to this narrative, Adam kept written records with an account of his experiences and no doubt this would include books written by himself, his own pen (?), upon whatever media was used. This was passed down to his posterity: Seth, Enos, Cainan, etc. The chosen sons (see D&C 107) receiving master documents created by Adam – most importantly the BOOK OF REMEMBRANCE made by Adam which contained his personal writings. But all this, an open book, an open canon, whereby revelation continued and his sons could keep adding to the account – all the way up until Noah. Hence, according to the narrative and genealogy of the patriarchal order it is very reasonable that Noah had original autographs of his father Lamech and his grandfather Methuselah as well. Bear in mind that Noah's grandfather died less than 2 years before the flood. The patriarchal fathers kept a tight record as recorded in Moses 6 and D&C 107.

There is nothing in the narrative that leads me to believe they relied on copies of copies of the original BOOK OF REMEMBRANCE because the master original was destroyed. That would be an assumption, without any proof. I have no problem with the idea that Adam's original record survived 1,656 years until Noah's flood, especially if it was engraved on tablets. Thus, I have no problem if Noah said he had the book of Adam that was written by his own hand after he left the garden of Eden. Go figure.

You of course, can assume whatever you want, zerinus. But you have no proof.

[_Shulem]

Moses 6:

4 And then began these men to call upon the name of the Lord, and the Lord blessed them;
5 And a book of remembrance was kept, in the which was recorded, in the language of Adam, for it was given unto as many as called upon God to write by the spirit of inspiration;
6 And by them their children were taught to read and write, having a language which was pure and undefiled.
7 Now this same Priesthood, which was in the beginning, shall be in the end of the world also.
8 Now this prophecy Adam spake, as he was moved upon by the Holy Ghost, and a genealogy was kept of the children of God. And this was the book of the generations of Adam, saying: In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

A BOOK OF REMBRANCE was kept in the language of Adam. This book could consist of many scrolls or tablets, a library kept in store in chests or special rooms. Hereby it's called an open canon, where more of the word of the Lord could be added. The genealogy was kept and the original revelations could be preserved in this library owned by the grand patriarchs themselves.

I see nothing about making copies of copies or destroying the original autographs.

[_Shulem]

Ether 8:

8 Now the daughter of Jared being exceedingly expert, and seeing the sorrows of her father, thought to devise a plan whereby she could redeem the kingdom unto her father.
9 Now the daughter of Jared was exceedingly fair. And it came to pass that she did talk with her father, and said unto him: Whereby hath my father so much sorrow? Hath he not read the record which our fathers brought across the great deep? Behold, is there not an account concerning them of old, that they by their secret plans did obtain kingdoms and great glory?

Here we are separated by the continents and thousands of years. It's very reasonable to assume based on the narrative and logistics that copies of copies of various accounts were circulated among the people in the new land. But note that records were brought across the water. Obviously, PRESERVING records was pretty important to them guys and I have to think that Joseph Smith would agree.

[_Shulem]

Abraham also evidently had a copy of this record, which is referred to here:

Abraham 1:

31 But the records of the fathers, even the patriarchs, concerning the right of Priesthood, the Lord my God preserved in mine own hands; therefore a knowledge of the beginning of the creation, and also of the planets, and of the stars, as they were made known unto the fathers, have I kept even unto this day, and I shall endeavor to write some of these things upon this record, for the benefit of my posterity that shall come after me.

It doesn't say that Abraham had a copy. It's not obvious. In fact, I think I've shown in previous posts that it's quite obvious that Abraham had original autographs that had been handed down from his fathers and he simply added more with pen in hand. You know the old saying, line upon line.

You've proven nothing, zerinus. But I will credit you for making an effort to study these things out.

[_Shulem]

So they all kept records in ancient times; and there is no point in keeping sacred records if you are going to just keep it for yourself. The idea is to disseminate it among as many people as can benefit from it, which in those days meant copying it by hand. There was no print in those days, so that is the only way that it could be done. So if Abraham wrote a book "by his own hands," and that book carried that inscription at the head of it, and each subsequent copy faithfully preserved that inscription, does that mean that hundredth copy down the line was literally, physically written by the hand of Abraham?

Making copies is fine but keep in mind that originals still exist when you're making the copy. It's called the master copy or the autograph. The master documents were precious to the patriarchs and Joseph Smith no doubt assumed that the patriarchs did everything in their power to preserve the originals. The originals, by the way, are the ones that are written with your own hand. Copies might be introduced in another fashion, I would think. But Joseph Smith didn't make that part up as you are doing, so we will never know.

He did indicate that the mummies were thousands of years old and that doesn't help your case, zerinus!