MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

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_Daniel Peterson
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

truth dancer wrote:I guess you are saying that you believe the church would indeed spend millions of dollars to help some of its employees write a book that damaged and harmed the testimonies of many believers but they would not do so gladly?

I'm saying that the Church did indeed spend considerable funds -- millions if not billions, if that'll make you happy -- to support the writing of a book that probably will damage some testimonies, and that the Church will not be "glad" if it damages testimonies.

truth dancer wrote:Dan, we all get that you had a conversation with various people and you believe them and yada yada yada. I'm not sure why you keep bringing this up since it has nothing whatsoever to do with the conversation.

I'm not sure how you can fail to see that it's precisely relevant.
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

beastie wrote:So what's the difference between writing "history are they were taught in graduate school" and writing history "as Mormons"?

You might want to read some of Richard Bushman's thoughts on this subject, as expressed, for example, in certain of his essays in Faithful History (Columbia University Press).

Of course, he's got a conflict of interest, so you probably can't trust him.
_beastie
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _beastie »

How odd. DCP has gone from asserting that the conflict of interest is so obvious that it doesn’t even need to be stated, and my requiring him to concede that it exists is the equivalent of conceding 2 + 2 = 4, to now claiming that asserting the existence of that same conflict of interest constitutes “poisoning the well”.

What issue? And how do you propose to deal with it?

You don't have the book, you don't believe that reading the book will help you form a judgment, you don't believe that Will Bagley will be able to form a judgment based on reading the book, and you say that you lack the knowledge of the subject to allow you to form a judgment.

So what is it, exactly, that you propose to do over the next forty to eighty pages of this thread?


I propose to eventually get you to admit that there is a conflict of interest (which you once did but now your statements are ambiguous )

Do you seriously suggest that, given the [possibility of a] conflict of interest and the past statements of church leaders supporting the suppression [sic] of material that could damage faith, readers have an obligation to simply take them at their word??


Look at your insertions. Now it’s just a “possibility of” and the noted “sic” of suppression. Far cry from so obvious that it’s 2 + 2 = 4, eh?


I propose to eventually get you to admit that LDS church leaders have, in the past, advocated suppressing history that is potentially damaging to the faith. I propose to eventually get you to admit that these two facts are legitimate concerns about the text, in particular combined with the fact that – at this point – other scholars cannot access the same material the authors did.

That’s all I propose.

He has access to the vast majority of the sources used by the authors. And he'll be able to tell, as others will, if they've tried to glide past an issue or to cover something up…

My understanding, although I could be wrong, is that the materials will eventually be opened to qualified researchers…

Would it? How do you know you could trust them? Or are you talking, simply, about non-Mormon or even anti-Mormon researchers, who are objective and reliable by definition?


When did I ever say, or insinuate, that “anti-Mormon” researchers are “objective and reliable by definition”? You’re just making up things out of desperation.

If and when other researchers can access the same material, they will obviously report on their findings. At that time the research will be open, and the question of whether or not the authors reliably utilized these sources will be largely resolved. Of course, there may still be differences of opinions, but each can make their case, using the same material.

Is this really so difficult to grasp?

He simply didn't call for the wholesale falsification of history. Period.


What do you mean by “wholesale falsification”? As I understand and would use the term, no, that’s not what Packer called for. He called for the omission of facts that could damage the faith. That’s a “partial falsification”.

It's obvious from the context of the remark, as I pointed out, that he was taking aim at historians and biographers who give undue weight to aspects of a story or a biography that tend to demean or diminish those they're writing about.


So graduate schools teach historians to “give undue weight to aspects of a story or biography that tend to demean or diminish those they’re writing about”? I seriously doubt it. Remember, he is differentiating between historians who follow the “tenets of their profession”, and “write history as they were taught in graduate school” versus writing history “as Mormons”.

That said, Elder Packer's views on historiography from nearly thirty years ago might or might not accord completely with those of other members of the Twelve or the First Presidency, then or now, or even entirely reflect his own views today. There's no reason to assume that they do. Elder Oaks, for example, was, prior to his call to the Twelve, the author or co-author of several important contributions to what has sometimes been termed "The New Mormon History," including the University of Illinois Press title Carthage Conspiracy.


Yes, since he was made apostle, he made the following statement:

Also, some things that are true are not edifying or appropriate to communicate, Elder Oaks said. Members should rely on the Holy Ghost, which if used, will not allow them to be mislead by lies and half-truths.


"Evil speaking of the Lord’s anointed is in a class by itself. It is one thing to depreciate a person who exercises corporate power or even government power. It is quite another thing to criticize or depreciate a person for the performance of an office to which he or she has been called of God. It does not matter that the criticism is true."


I've "proffered" no such "solution" for any organization, anywhere, at any time. I think that the best way of evaluating a book is via a careful and informed reading of it.


Of course, but without access to the same materials for other researchers to also review, you are, indeed, proffering the church’s and authors’ assurances as a solution. Or, of course, you could just be repeating that over and over as some sort of nervous tic without any attached meaning to the conversation.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

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_beastie
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _beastie »

Don't want this to get buried:

by the way, did D. Michael Quinn make the following statement in his essay in Faithful History?

"In June 1986 the staff of the church historical department announced it was necessary to sign a form which Elder Packer declared gave the right of pre-publication censorship for any archival research completed before signing the form. I and several others refused to sign the form and have not returned to do research at LDS church archives since 1986."
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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_LifeOnaPlate
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

DCP was likely referring to Bushman's book Believing History which contains the essay "Faithful History."
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_LifeOnaPlate
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

beastie wrote:Thanks, chap. I think it has been revealing.


So do I. Very, actually.
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_LifeOnaPlate
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

Daniel Peterson wrote:Brodie's biography of Jefferson is a classic illustration of Elder Packer's very sound point.

Numerous other examples could be cited. Edmund Morris's weird biography of Ronald Reagan is one that comes readily to mind.



Add to the list Jerome Corsi's new ridiculous screed Obama Nation. It's history, folks!
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_Daniel Peterson
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Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:56 pm

Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

beastie wrote:I propose to eventually get you to admit that there is a conflict of interest

I'm not going to play this game with you any more.

If nuances aren't your thing, you'd better find somebody who doesn't use them. I try to be accurate, and blunt instruments aren't always adequate to the task.

beastie wrote:I propose to eventually get you to admit that LDS church leaders have, in the past, advocated suppressing history that is potentially damaging to the faith.

I've said what I've said. Try to understand it. Or don't.

beastie wrote:He called for the omission of facts that could damage the faith. That’s a “partial falsification”.

He faulted historians who took perverse delight in tearing down and diminishing.

beastie wrote:So graduate schools teach historians to “give undue weight to aspects of a story or biography that tend to demean or diminish those they’re writing about”? I seriously doubt it. Remember, he is differentiating between historians who follow the “tenets of their profession”, and “write history as they were taught in graduate school” versus writing history “as Mormons”.

I don't know that Elder Packer was or is an authority on what's taught in graduate history programs across the country. I think he was simply reacting to a trend that was very visible among some historians and biographers at the time (and that continues to be, in some circles), to demean the figures they wrote about. I think it's a legitimate concern.

Do I have to agree with his precise formulation? I don't think so. But I'm sympathetic to his point. And I don't think it's misguided.

beastie wrote:Yes, since he [Dallin H. Oaks] was made apostle, he made the following statement:
Also, some things that are true are not edifying or appropriate to communicate, Elder Oaks said. Members should rely on the Holy Ghost, which if used, will not allow them to be mislead by lies and half-truths.

I couldn't agree more.

beastie wrote:
"Evil speaking of the Lord’s anointed is in a class by itself. It is one thing to depreciate a person who exercises corporate power or even government power. It is quite another thing to criticize or depreciate a person for the performance of an office to which he or she has been called of God. It does not matter that the criticism is true."

Again, I strongly agree.

And I think it very odd that you seem to equate historiography with "evil speaking of the Lord's anointed" and with "depreciating" people. That's not how I would define the word.

I see nothing here, whatsoever, calling for the falsification of history.

I don't even see anything about historiography at all.
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

beastie wrote:Don't want this to get buried:

by the way, did D. Michael Quinn make the following statement in his essay in Faithful History?

"In June 1986 the staff of the church historical department announced it was necessary to sign a form which Elder Packer declared gave the right of pre-publication censorship for any archival research completed before signing the form. I and several others refused to sign the form and have not returned to do research at LDS church archives since 1986."

He may have.

I have no reason, despite your biases, to suspect you of falsifying the quotation.

I could check the book -- it's about four feet from my left hand -- but I don't adopt the notion that what I read is a lie unless proven otherwise.

And there may (or may not) have been such a form. (How could I check it? Am I to rely upon his word?) None of my historian friends have ever mentioned this episode to me. And many of them have continued to do extensive research in the Church Historical Department.

But, if there was such a form, it might or might not have been as sinister as Quinn seems to imply and you seem to want to believe. Many archives impose restrictions on material that may be used and on the researchers who use them. Have you ever done research in an archive?

And LOAP is right. The Bushman book is Believing History.
_beastie
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _beastie »

Earlier in this thread, DCP stated that if solid evidence were found to prove that BY ordered the massacre, it would cast serious doubt on his role as prophet.

Information that cast doubt on BY's role as prophet would inevitably lead to the erosion of faith of many members.

This is exactly the type of information that "would not be edifying", "give time to the adversary", "following the tenets of the profession regardless of how it would injure the church".

No matter how DCP tries to neutralize the statements of Packer and Oaks, there can be little doubt that this information would damage the church, and hence, Packer nor Oaks would approve its inclusion.

Frankly, I think this is as obvious as 2 + 2 = 4. But see what I have to do to try and get DCP or LoaP to admit the obvious? This is why I belabored my earlier point, that the church has a serious conflict of interest. DCP earlier stated that the point was too obvious to be worth stating, and yet now includes the phrases such as "potential" and "possibility of". This is an example of how difficult it can be to get defenders of the faith to concede a painfully obvious point, and why I cannot simply assume that they agree with the point, no matter how painfully obvious.

Here is the wiki definition of conflict of interest:

A conflict of interest is a situation in which someone in a position of trust, such as a lawyer, insurance adjuster, a politician, executive or director of a corporation or a medical research scientist or physician, has competing professional or personal interests. Such competing interests can make it difficult to fulfill his or her duties impartially. A conflict of interest exists even if no unethical or improper act results from it. A conflict of interest can create an appearance of impropriety that can undermine confidence in the person, profession, or court system. A conflict can be mitigated by third party verification or third party evaluation noted below—but it still exists.

However, conflicts of interest do not only apply to professionals. A conflict of interest arises when anyone has two duties which conflict. For example, an employee might have a duty to well and faithfully perform their work as purchasing manager, and might also have a familial duty to their sibling who happens to be tendering for the sale of widgets to the manager's employer. In this case the employee has a conflict of interest despite the fact that he is not a lawyer, doctor, politician, etc.


Note the bolded portion, which affirms exactly what I've been stating. As I've stated several times, noting the conflict of interest does not automatically mean that the text is inaccurate. Yet DCP has twisted my words to mean just that. I am simply stating the very obvious. The church has one interest, which is preserving faith in the gospel in order to save souls. According to DCP and the authors, the church as another interest, which is allowing the truth about MMM to be printed no matter what that truth may be, including if BY ordered the massacre. These are conflicting interests. D'oh. Conflicting interests can "make it difficult to fulfill" duties impartially. It can exist even if no unethical behavior results from it. But it gives an appearance of impropriety that undermines confidence. It can be mitigated by third party evaluation. (such as giving other qualified researchers access to the same material)

This is exactly what I have been stating. I have been forced to repeat my points over and over due to the fact that DCP pretends that I've either made no point at all, or made no point worth noting, or that I'm engaged in "poisoning the well". He pretends that I am saying that we can all assume the book is inaccurate. He has created strawman after strawman and silly diversion after silly diversion. He is now creatively interpreting the clear words of Packer to not mean he's advocating suppressing parts of true history that could damage faith (quite a feat, given how clear Packer was), and insinuating Quinn exaggerated the point of the form he was asked to sign. (the church could easily verify or negate this charge by providing a copy of the form and allowing Quinn and others who were asked to sign it to verify that it is, indeed, the form used)

Here's another example of how the church reacts to historians who follow the tenets of their profession over writing "as a Mormon". There is nothing to indicate that Linda Newell "delighted" in revealing the true information about Joseph Smith' polygamy that she revealed in Mormon Enigma. (I believe Newell remains a faithful member to this day) Yet after its publication, the church apparently forbade discussion of the book in Relief Society or any other meeting. Sterling McMurrin noted this sad affair in an interview, and directly implicated Oaks and Maxwell.

http://www.lds-mormon.com/newell_mcmurrin.shtml

And, of course, we have the case of the September Six (and subsequent others). Not all of these excomunicated folks were historians, of course, but some were.


So, once again, all I am doing is stating the obvious: the church has a conflict of interest in this case, as well as a history of encouraging suppression of truths that could damage the church. This creates an appearance of impropriety, even if nothing unethical occurred, which can be mitigated by involving third parties to evaluate the process (ie, allow other qualified researchers access to the same material). My intent was to get DCP to concede these points, but I think that he feels burned after conceding the conflict of interest (which he now refers to as only a "possibility") and will never do so. But I feel satisfied that interested readers were able to appreciate my fairly simple points, and I do wish I had not been forced to so stubbornly and painfully reiterate them so many times in the vain hope of getting some sort of concession. Believe me, reiterating a simple point over and over irritated me as much as any possible reader. I truly wish it had not been necessary.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
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