beastie wrote:Over the years I've concluded that believing Mormons who are aware of the historical, theological, and scientific arguments facing Mormonism are extremely sensitive about being seen as "stupid" by exbelievers. In fact, many exbelievers do think that TBMs are stupid. (I don't) Neither group is stupid. But I think many vocal believers on places like MAD, deep down believe most exbelievers really do think that continued belief in Mormonism is a sign of stupidity. Hence the determination to demonstrate that it's really the exbelievers who are stupid.
That's my personal psychobabble, at least.
More psychobabble. I think that some people in that situation realize that they have to come up with a superstructure of rationalizations and caveats, and their fear of being considered stupid is a function of their insecurity about that superstructure.
Back when I was an apologist, I was extremely sensitive to the accusation that I hadn't thought things through carefully. I suspect that I was insecure about all the rationalizations I had made, and I didn't want to believe I was stupid.
I agree that mopologists are not stupid, and neither are we (myself not included). We're all doing the best we can with what we know. I can't fault anyone for that.
When I first came on a Mormon debate board, or even a learn about board as is on beliefnet, I came to realize really quickly that religion is a very sensitive thing. We identify very closely with our dogmatic beliefs, and anyone who questions them is suspect.
Like I said earlier, I don't think TBMs are stupid. I've met many whose intelligence far exceeds my own. I think people are drawn to certain religions (those who practice "actively") because that religion meets some inherent need. There is nothing wrong with that. I have a TBM friend whose mind I have never tried to change. He's often miserable, but I believe that if he gets miserable enough, he'll do whatever he needs to do in order to get to a place of happiness. The only problem I have is with any religious person's belief that those who don't believe like them are somehow spiritually or mentally less than. That is simply not the case. Religion is the clothing that spirituality wears, and thank you, but I prefer my jeans and t-shirt to your suit. Sometimes I like to go buck naked. It's my choice, as is it your choice to be where you are and "wear" what you do.
P.S. Thanks for the well wishes, those who saw my space. Eventually I'll get back to it. And misery, I appreciate your defense. Some people wouldn't know wit if it crept up their anus.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
GIMR wrote: Listen pal, I cannot stand participants on message boards who argue with straw men that they dress up with the screen names of others. And I like even less people with "little dog syndrome" (I feel small, so let me yell big). Find another hobby. If I'm as mental as you think I am, I'd back off, because I might just be capable of screwing you up big time. Don't try me.
From your first post in this thread I recognized you have a juvenile mentality and an attitude/chip on your shoulder problem. Your bullying and threats are at the maturity level of elementary grade school kids.
As far as addressing the rest of your post I'm not going to bother. My first post to you in this thread mentioned that you don't back up your complaints, and you've continued to do this, with me throughout this thread. You are an idiot GIMR.
You wrote the following in your first post: "Don't you (TBM's) people see the asses that you're making of yourselves?" ...I haven't noticed TBM's in my readings on the Net making asses of themselves but I certainly noticed that you do an excellent job of it.
Last edited by _marg on Fri Dec 22, 2006 2:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
GIMR wrote:I hate to break it to you hun, but you just proved my point about TBMs and other fundamentalists. You're just a fundie of another sort. A fundie is someone hell bent on having someone believe as they do. And when backed into a corner, they usually come out with comments about someone's lack in an intellectual or spiritual sense.
Does it ever occur to you to back up what you say? How about showing some intellectual honesty and maturity...by quoting me..so you can back up your claim that I'm some fundie backed into a corner and attacking your intelligence. It's quite possible GIMR that people attack your intelligence for good reason.
GIMR wrote:I hate to break it to you hun, but you just proved my point about TBMs and other fundamentalists. You're just a fundie of another sort. A fundie is someone hell bent on having someone believe as they do. And when backed into a corner, they usually come out with comments about someone's lack in an intellectual or spiritual sense.
Does it ever occur to you to back up what you say? How about showing some intellectual honesty and maturity...by quoting me..so you can back up your claim that I'm some fundie backed into a corner and attacking your intelligence. It's quite possible GIMR that people attack your intelligence for good reason.
Dumbass, I did quote you. Now go take a nap before I give you the spanking you deserve.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
What is this, atheist apologetics? I believe in nothing, so I'm going to argue about nothing?
Here's marg:
How about showing some intellectual honesty and maturity...by quoting me..so you can back up your claim that I'm some fundie backed into a corner and attacking your intelligence.
Here's marg again:
I’m getting the impression GIMR that you are mentally challenged. And consequently if that is the case I’d waste my time responding to you, but for this post I'll continue.
Marg, you want a fight. You will lose. I hate to break it to you, but all your posts have been are an attack on my character because I won't follow your line of thinking. Stop while you're only slightly behind.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
I hate to break it to you hun, but you just proved my point about TBMs and other fundamentalists. You're just a fundie of another sort. A fundie is someone hell bent on having someone believe as they do. And when backed into a corner, they usually come out with comments about someone's lack in an intellectual or spiritual sense.
Quote me ...where I'm trying to get you or anyone to believe as I do. Support your claim I'm a "fundie of another sort."
Quote me, where I've criticized your religious beliefs.
My criticisms of YOU have been irrespective of religious beliefs. You attacked a whole group of people "ALL TBM's" in your opening post not individual TBM's and then made an juvenile offensive remark which was a reflection of your stupidity and arrogance, not anyone else's.
That's the point, dumbass. You started off focusing on ME rather than what I said. And how in the hell are you going to ask me to quote you for something I didn't accuse you of? My religious beliefs? We're on that now, I thought we were on my idiocy a while ago...
Amazing to see an apologist for absolutely nothing.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
Oh...ok, I see. Marq is a person who has no religous beliefs who has set out to be the champion of one sect, hence showing his prejudice, rather than applying his principles across the board. Either that or he is simply someone with nothing else better to do than to take a person's words and make them mean what he wishes.
EVERY TBM THAT I HAVE COME ACROSS WHO SAW ME DOUBT MY FAITH MADE IT AN ISSUE OF ME LACKING IN SOME WAY.
EVERY...EVERY...NOT MOST, NOT A FEW, BUT EVERY
And yes, their behavior was asenine, not to mention cruel and insensitive.
Marg, I'm sorry you don't like that. Now you can continue to call me names, say I have a chip on my shoulder, psychoanalyze all you want to. It doesn't make your views any more effective.
But I thank you for the time and effort you took to come on here and tell me about myself, rather than just discussing the topic at hand (and calmly at that) like everyone else. You came in with your pinky-sized pistol a-blazing, and apparently do not know how to admit defeat in order to cease making a comic view of yourself. Well, in that case, I take back my earlier statement about you stopping while you were a little bit behind. Keep going. I'm amused.[/b]
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
Marg, I would like to ask you a few questions. I'm almost sure that you'll probably take my questions as an attempt to dive into your personal life, or an attempt to flame, but I find it interesting how some (note I said SOME, because in my experience not all nonbelievers in God acted in the manner that you do) atheists just love to argue.
I have to ask, is your defense of Mormonism and only Mormonism rooted in a previous membership or familial alliance with the church? In other words, even though you may not see a need to be Mormon, could family or friend ties spark your desire to protect them? (And them only, it seems...)
I almost hate to ask, because sometimes when you ask an athiest in an environment like this what his or her motivations are, they get so testy. You see, one's beliefs and spiritual experiences often motivate people. But if all you have in said area is just one big blank, then I can understand why one would hesitate to talk about it. Another athiest who doesn't frequent this board often got very angry when I asked him on another board to state what he believed. Again, our beliefs motivate us. He simply wanted to disagree for the sake of doing so (much like you), and keep as anonymous as possible. He eventually got laughed off the board.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi