VegasRefugee wrote:Your a moderate in the Mormon world and you see things as a moderate, ignoring the facts around you. Your filtering out the negative. Why don't you use the negative you see to actually change your life instead of using the positive to rationalize a way of life that is different than what you want? . . . Your not like me Jason, but you will eventually have to confront your distaste for the irrational nature of Mormonism as they demand total allegiance.
Hi VegasRefugee,
If you have a minute, you might want to check out this post.
Have a good day!
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"
Whereas I think that Vegas has, as is his habit, engaged in a wee bit of hyperbole, I think one point he is trying to make is a valid one.
To wit: That moderate (reasonable, non-dogmatic, etc.) Mormons merely shrug off the uncharitable and uninspired ravings of BKP and other of "God's spokespersons", rationalize away overt sexism and homophobia, acquiese quietly to non-financial disclosure, stay silent in the face of blatant historical distortions, gloss over ecclesiastical abuses, and go uncritically along when treated like children, and so forth only perpetuates these types of bad behaviors and empowers those who perpetuate them.
Just because you let such things run off your shoulder doesn't mean that others internalize the same thing in the same way. Very generally, moderates consistently err in thinking that other people are reasonable and well-balanced like they are, thus they fail to pick up on how things like Packer's talk (multiplied by hundreds of similar incidents) can cumulatively really mess with people's minds.
I keep asking myself when such reasonable people of Jason, Liz, my wife, my in-laws, my parents, etc. are finally going to take a stand and hold their leaders accountable for their words and actions and take some kind of over action to take their beloved religion back from the rigid dogmatists.
I am not sure whether they more afraid, happy to just go along, simply sheep-like, or indoctrinated to the point where they buy into the self-serving garbage that there can be no such thing as loyal opposition.
I think it's a combination of all of these, plus some more.
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
VegasRefugee wrote:No, im no therapist, just making an observation concerning your behavior. Your a moderate in the Mormon world and you see things as a moderate, ignoring the facts around you. Your filtering out the negative. Why don't you use the negative you see to actually change your life instead of using the positive to rationalize a way of life that is different than what you want?
As the church falls deeper and deeper into marginalization they will come looking for you. Tehy will hurt your family as they have hurt mine through emotional manipulation.
Your not like me Jason, but you will eventually have to confront your distaste for the irrational nature of Mormonism as they demand total allegiance.
Vegas, I am truly sorry for the pain that you have experienced due to your association with the Mormon Church. It tears me up when I see people who have suffered to the degree you have obviously suffered.
I would never discount your experiences, or label them as false, because that would be disrespectful of your experiences.
We ALL see things from the perspective of our own experiences. Mine have been similar to Jason's and Runtu's. However, I don't discount what you have observed as well.
Why is it so hard for you to fathom a moderate Mormon? Are you just upset because Jason and I have found a way to do it?
What's wrong with using our God-given powers of discernment and taking the good that is in the Church and leaving the bad behind?
I don't care what organized religion you choose to be a part of. You are going to find "goods and bads" to ANY large organization.
RM: It seems to me Liz, that most are missing Vegas' POINT:"ANY large organization" that professes to be THE ONE & ONLY TRUE CHURCH IN THE UNIVERSE has placed itself under a microscope. They ask for scrutiny above and beyond that given to the "goods and bads" of other "large (or small) organizations."
I don't begrudge you for finding something that has worked for you and your family...which was leaving Mormonism altogether. Please don't begrudge those of us who have chosen to stay, and have found a way that works for us.
RM:Very charitable of You. Why ask for reciprocation? That's usually offered... Could be most here do not respect Vegas for what "he" is attempting: Warning of the toxicity "he" sees as destructive. That some might have immunity, to some degree or other, is beside the fact that others might be more at peril. Sort-of like Peanut alergies. I luv peanuts, they take others to their grave.
"Moderate" Mormon? How would one be identified? Mild mannered? Live-and-let-live, we're all "God's"!??? There can be nothing but arguement over LDS edicts, rituals, oaths and covenants, etc between those who believe and those who do not believe them to be divine rites and promises.
There can be little disputing policies, practices, statements and attitudes that tend to be oppressive, manipulative, coersive, spiritually stiffling and encouage fear, shame and guilt in minds and lives of those subject to LDS' malignant authority. Some do tend to be immune... Or thrive in it???
Seems hard for most LDS to see their church as simply 1 of 1,000 in which THEY feel comfortable. That it bears the name "Jesus Christ..." is little more than a marketing ploy. Works for some, and not for others. T'ain't all good, or bad...just that it's not what it professes to be... Warm regards Roger
"Moderate" Mormon? How would one be identified? Mild mannered? Live-and-let-live, we're all "God's"!??? There can be nothing but arguement over LDS edicts, rituals, oaths and covenants, etc between those who believe and those who do not believe them to be divine rites and promises.
Certialny any strong conservitve dogmatic religion is like this as well. That in and of itself does not make to right or good nor justify it. But for those who may want religion and may find flaws in most if not all religion the LDS Church may serve them well. But for the most part, those who are active will see themsleves as you indetify above.
There can be little disputing policies, practices, statements and attitudes that tend to be oppressive, manipulative, coersive, spiritually stiffling and encouage fear, shame and guilt in minds and lives of those subject to LDS' malignant authority. Some do tend to be immune... Or thrive in it???
This is the difficulty. One cannot challenge the status quo. If one is vocal about one most likely will leave. either on their own or be ushered out.
Seems hard for most LDS to see their church as simply 1 of 1,000 in which THEY feel comfortable. That it bears the name "Jesus Christ..." is little more than a marketing ploy.
I mostly respect what you say but the marketing ploy remark is out of line. The LDS Church believe it is Jesus's church as much as any other that claims to be His. One may disagree but still some brain trust did not wake up one day and say "hey, it would really help us to add Jesus to the name of the Church."
Works for some, and not for others. T'ain't all good, or bad...just that it's not what it professes to be... Warm regards Roger
There is not much I have found in live that is really all it professes to be. Not organizatoins and not people either.
Coggins7 wrote:Question: Why don't you get a life Sono and cease and desist with this kind of witless, confrontational gibberish. The Church is all about life, and the glorious and wonderful fact that life is the fundamental fact of the universe. No one actually ever "dies" in any ultimate sense (and nobody goes to Valhalla and orders a beer from a half naked Valkyrie) and a funeral (an event marking a major and important transitionary phase in our eternal progression) is a perfect time to bring that fact to remembrance. I thought Vegas and PP were the kings of just plain flat footedly dumb commentary upon the Church and the philosophical orientation of its faithful members but you've moved to the head of the class (Whoknows is a close second for vacuous pop-Atheist anti-religion rhetoric lifted from old Madalyn Murry O' Hair appearances on Phil Donahue, but lets not quibble here). Reaching out to people at their lowest point and focusing their minds on the church with its blessings, promises, and ordinances of sealing are precisely the point you ninny.
How on earth much rocket science is necessary with these people???
Loran
You see.....this is the type of non-Christian, insensitive attitude that makes it an embarassment to note that we belong to the same Church.
Loran....GROW UP!
Sono was proposing a sincere question.
Here is a sincere answer to that question, Sono.
In all of the LDS funerals I have attended, and have helped plan, there has been a balance. There is a eulogy, normally given by a family member. Sometimes an additional talk by a family member is given. Often there is a musical number. There is also a talk given by a Bishop or Stake President about the Plan of Salvation, and how our earthly life is only a small part of the large life in front of us.
See how easy it can be to be civil, Loran? You should try it sometime.
Oh goody. Now that the real intellectual heavyweight is here, we can all sit quiety at his feet as words of wisdom flow from his lips like the very waters of life...
cog, i think it might help your rantings to know exactly why it was i started this thread. I feel that the dead deserve the respect that they have earned in life. I feel funerals and such time should be used to honour those people. When i die, i don't want people to be crying or grieving. I want it to be a party, with a band and all, in which all my closest friends smile widely as they recount the happy tales they will remember about me. Not about what i believed i would be doing now that i was dead. That would be the greatest honour to me. Likewise, i know that as young as i am, this will come up many times within my lifetime. I would prefer that funerals honor the life, not the later effects. That would best be left to the individual religious classes you ascribe to.
When i first read this speech, it primarily mad me very sad that such a disengenious methodology would be used to attempt to hook people in. Earlier this year when my great grandmother died, it was not what could be described as a Mormon funeral. And i think it was a very beautifull service to hear about her from those that where important to her, and not be preached to about why her death was "special". I guess it could be said: In life honor death, in death honor life.
One nice thing is, ze game of love is never called on account of darkness - Pepe Le Pew