Science affecting the decision on the existence of God?

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.

How does science affect your decision on the existence of God?

 
Total votes: 0

_Gorman
_Emeritus
Posts: 499
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:05 pm

Post by _Gorman »

Sethbag wrote:I really like this thing Dawkins has said, that religions claim to be able to answer the "why" questions, but there is no reason anyone should consider religion's answers to those questions to be any better than anyone else's.


Yeah, I agree with that. I think it is mostly due to verifiability. On these sorts of questions, verifiability is one thing no one has.
_Gazelam
_Emeritus
Posts: 5659
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:06 am

Communication of the Spirit

Post by _Gazelam »

Analytics wrote:As I understand it on its most fundamental level, science works under the theory that the universe we observe and live in is made up of matter and energy, and that matter and energy interact through forces that operate in space and time. That is it.

Now, if there is a “god” (or an anything else), it is either made up of matter and/or energy and exists in space and time, or it does not. If it does not, then I claim that it is utterly irrelevant; if it isn’t in space and time, then it doesn’t interact with the things that are.

I suppose you could say I accept that on “faith”. It’s faith in something that has an incredible amount of evidence to support it. But in a way it’s faith. But if the alternative is true, then the proposition that the universe works according to natural law is an illusion.

From the perspective of Mormonism, God exists within space and time. If that is true, then science should be able to detect God. If there really is a holy ghost out there made up of matter (fine and pure matter, of course), then in principle, science should be able to detect it. If messages from the Holy Ghost stimulate the nuerons in your brain, then the messages should also be able to stimulate the receptors in a scientific instrument.



In 1854 Orson Pratt spoke regarding how the Holy Ghost communicates, indicating that at some future time we might communicate with one another in a similar manner.

Now let us touch, for a few moments, upon a principle in regard to the communication of knowledge between man and man, in his future state. We know how we communicate knowledge one to another here; it is by speaking, by writing, by arbitrary sounds that we convey our ideas one to another, and reveal knowledge, instruction, and truth one to another. This is a very imperfect medium of communication, consequently man progresses slowly, very slowly, indeed, in obtaining truth. But supposing that we could have revealed to us from on high a language more pure and heavenly, that is a perfect language, so far as it can be made perfect, and be adapted to our present state of existence; let such a language be revealed to us; let us learn it; let us obtain a knowledge of all the various symbols of the same, by which we could communicate our ideas one to another, perfectly, without any ambiguity or uncertainty in the ideas, would not this be a medium by which mankind could greatly enlarge their ideas and knowledge of things? Could not those that have progressed in the principles of truth and righteousness more readily impart their ideas to others? Now we find, in consequence of the imperfection of our language, that it is very difficult, indeed, to communicate readily our ideas to others, so that we have to spend years and years to instil into the minds of children and youth, some very easy and simple principles of knowledge. It is in one sense owing to the weakness of the capacity and intellect in early age, but it is still more owing to the imperfection of language by which these ideas are communicated. (The speaker here asked a blessing upon the bread.)

We were speaking upon the imperfect medium, here in this life, by which we convey our ideas one to another. Let us now compare our present means of obtaining knowledge with the facilities which are no doubt, in store for the people of God. Will there be a pure language restored? There will; through the testimony of the prophets. We are also told that tongues shall cease. We are to understand by this that the great varieties of languages and tongues that have existed on the earth for many ages, are to be done away; they are to cease; now something must take the place of those imperfect, confused languages and tongues. What is that something? It is a language that is spoken by higher orders of beings than ourselves; that is, beings that have progressed further than ourselves; it is that same language that was spoken for nearly two thousand years after the creation; that was spoken by Adam and by his children, from generation to generation that came down to the flood, and was taught extensively among the children of Noah until the Lord by a direct miracle caused the people to forget their own mother tongue, and gave them a variety of new tongues that they had no knowledge of, and by this means scattered them abroad upon the face of the whole earth; and now that same Being that destroyed the memory of the people at the building of the tower, so that they could not remember their own mother tongue, and the same Being that gave to them new languages and tongues, will operate again by His power to do away this curse, for I consider it a curse, and the blessing will be as great and as extensive as the curse, in destroying it from the face of the earth. This is a poor medium of communication between man and man. Whether this pure language here spoken of, which is to be spoken here upon the earth among mankind in their mortal state, is to be as perfect as the language that has to be spoken in our immortal state, is not for us to say; but still we may draw some conclusions upon this matter, from the fact that things in the eternal world will in some measure be different from what they are here.

For instance; how do you suppose that spirits after they leave these bodies, communicate one with another? Do they communicate their ideas by the actual vibrations of the atmosphere the same as we do? I think not. I think if we could be made acquainted with the kind of language by which spirits converse with spirits, we would find that they do not communicate their ideas in this manner; they have a more refined way; I mean that portion of them that are in the school of progress; they have undoubtedly a more refined system among them of communicating their ideas. This system will be so constructed that they can, not only communicate at the same moment upon one subject, as we have to do by making sounds in the atmosphere, but communicate vast numbers of ideas, all at the same time, on a great variety of subjects; and the mind will be capable of perceiving them. Perhaps there may be some who consider this altogether an improbability. They may consider it very improbable that the mind should be able to take in a vast collection of ideas, on different subjects, all at once, and be able to digest and comprehend them; if the mind has such faculty as this, then there must necessarily be a language adapted to such a capacity of the mind; not an imperfect medium of communication to convey a few simple ideas upon one subject at a time, as is done here, but a language exactly adapted to the capacity; if the capacity is greater, then the language must be more refined than what it is here, in order to communicate in the same ratio that the capacity is capable of receiving and understanding. It is impossible for man to communicate, by our present language, any more than one chain of ideas at the same time. There may be other ideas suggested to the individual who is hearing, but the ideas of the individual who is speaking are always in one line, giving one idea at a time; and the mind seems hardly capable here in the mortal tabernacle, for some reason, of receiving more than one idea at a time, or at least a very few, and such ideas follow each other in quick succession. In the spirit state, we have reason to believe, that inasmuch as there is such a vast field of knowledge to be learned, their medium of communication will be adapted to the nature and capacity of the mind to grasp in a variety of subjects and digest them all at once.

Well inquires one, "Can you imagine up any such system, or language in this world?" I can imagine up one, but it cannot be made practicable here, from the fact that the mind of man is unable to use it. For instance, the Book of Mormon tells us, that the angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost, and man when under the influence of it, speaks the language of angels. Why does he speak in this language? Because the Holy Ghost suggests the ideas which he speaks; and it gives him utterance to convey them to the people. Suppose the Holy Ghost should suggest to the mind of an individual a vast multitude of truths, I mean when in the spiritual state, and he wished to convey that intelligence and knowledge to his fellow spirit; suppose, instead of having arbitrary sounds, such as we have here, to communicate these ideas, that the Holy Ghost itself, through a certain process and power, should enable him to unfold that knowledge to another spirit, all in an instant, without this long tedious process of artificial and arbitrary sounds, and written words. The fact is, if celestial spirits were so organized, and so constructed, as to close up their own ideas in their own bosoms, from those in a lower condition, or to disclose them at their own pleasure, according to the mind and wisdom of the Holy Ghost, and others were so organized and constituted as to receive these ideas by the power of the Holy Ghost, it would be just as good a communication between man and man-between spirit and spirit, as any other medium, and perhaps far better. Now, I have quite an idea that this will be one of the great helps in the eternal world, by which knowledge will be poured out more abundantly upon the mind of man; it will be by this aid; by the power of the Holy Spirit, so that they will progress faster than here, they will learn more rapidly; the intellectual powers will be more expanded.

There is something of this nature that God has revealed. You may think I am now reasoning altogether upon conjecture, and only to be received as such; well, we will let it go us such; but still there are some glimmerings of light and intelligence, which God has revealed in regard to these superior beings in the eternal world, which show us that some such economy will be carried on in the future world. For instance, how does God perceive the thoughts of our hearts? Is there not here a language by which He can discover and discern the thoughts and intents of the heart? Are we not told in many of the revelations how that God can perceive the thoughts of man, and that for every idle thought we are to be brought into judgment? Yes, He discerns the thoughts, and the intents of the hearts of the children of men. Suppose we had some of that power resting upon us, would not that be a different kind of a language from sound, or from a written language? It would. If spirits could commune with spirits, and one higher intelligence commune with another, by the same principle through which God sees the thoughts and intents of the heart, it would be nothing more than what has already existed here in this world, according to that which is revealed.

Much might be said upon this subject; it is a glorious subject to contemplate; and it is that which gives joy to the mind of every righteous man who desires the truth; he knows how happy the principle of truth makes him here, when he discerns it, or it is revealed to him; and if he can get his mind fixed upon a more glorious economy, wherein truth can be unfolded more rapidly, and in such a way that there can be no possibility of mistaking it for error; the very anticipation of it is calculated to inspire the heart of every individual to be faithful in all things, that he may enter into the enjoyment of those blessings which are ahead.

There are a great many things to be contemplated, in connection with man in his future state, compared with his present. One principle I mentioned to you last Sabbath; that mankind would be able, through the power of the Holy Ghost, to obtain a knowledge of a vast number of things at once, and of a vast portion of the works of God all at once, the same as Moses did when he looked upon every particle of this earth and discerned it by the Spirit of God, not only all the various continents and islands, but every particle of the interior of it; all was presented before his mind at once. He did not have to reason out the knowledge concerning these particles; neither did he have to look at one particle of it at a time, but he had the faculty by which he could look at more than one thing at once; he could look at almost an infinite number at the same time; for there are more particles in one grain of sand than we could number in all our life if we lived to be a thousand years old; and if Moses could look upon every particle, and behold the whole all at once, he must have had the capacity of looking in all directions in the same moment, and of beholding it by the Spirit. Here was a language by which he conversed with nature; with the works of God; and the Spirit that is in connexion with the works of God-that is in all creation-conversed with Moses, for the Spirit of God is in all things, around about all things, through all things, and the law by which all things are governed. When that Spirit, which is thus diffused through all the materials of nature, undertakes to converse with the minds of men, it converses in a different kind of language from that we use in our imperfect state. It communicates ideas more rapidly-more fully, and unfolds a world of knowledge in a moment. But the Lord told Moses that a man in the flesh could not see all His glory, without seeing all His works; and that no man could behold all His works and afterwards remain in the flesh. Though the Spirit opened the mind of Moses, so that he could converse, as it were, with this one world, and discern every particle of it, and understand all about it; yet there was a stopping point; he was not permitted to gaze upon the particles of the moon, the sun, the planets, and fixed stars, and of the other worlds which God had made, only so far as God thought fit to open his mind to gaze upon His works; but the same Spirit is in the sun, and is the power thereof by which it is governed; the same Spirit is in the moon, and is the power thereof by which it was made; the same Spirit is also in the planets, and fixed stars, and it is the power thereof by which they are governed. I say the same Spirit, existing in all these worlds, could converse with the mind of man, as it conversed with Moses, and unfold their particles, and all things connected with them with the same ease as it unfolded the particles of this earth.

So you see that there is a language in the spirit world that can communicate more to the mind in one minute than could be learned here in a hundred years of intense study and reasoning. There is an eternity of knowledge. There are worlds, as it were, without number; kingdoms without number; personages without number; intellectual beings of all grades and orders without number; and all these have their laws, their governments, their kingdoms, their thrones, their principalities, their powers, all moving and acting in the sphere in which they are placed; and they all have their way of communication one with another; therefore, when the Apostle says, that tongues shall cease, he had reference to the imperfect tongues upon the earth; knowledge will not cease, but knowledge in part will be done away, not knowledge in full. Says the Apostle Paul, "We know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." These imperfect things will be done away, and we shall be able by the power of the Holy Ghost to obtain a language by which the angels speak, and by which a higher order of beings speak, and by these means attain to a greater degree of knowledge, that will produce a greater amount of happiness.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Ubbo-Sathla
_Emeritus
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:58 pm

(How) Does science affect my decision on belief in God?

Post by _Ubbo-Sathla »

The ontological argument (or is it chronological?) of Thomas Aquinas, and the "Dual Characteristics" and "Dual Valences" of the Divine Principle, are what convinced me of the existence and essential nature of God. Explanations and examples of "Intelligent Design," Purposefulness, Direction, unbridgeable gaps, corroborate it for me.
Post Reply