so, what happened today in Sacrament meeting?

[_Yoda]

McKonkie's book, "Mormon Doctrine" has been labeled as controversial since it was published. David O. McKay and other Church leaders were not in agreement at all about a lot of the material. It was left to stand so that McKonkie wouldn't suffer embarrassment, but like the JoD, is not considered official Church canon.

Seven, do you live in Utah? There seem to be more LDS folks with the kind of fundamentalist thinking you describe in that part of U.S.

Just curious.

[_Yoda]

Nehor:
The teachings on the Premortal world being taught DO NOT teach that.

Even Joseph Smith taught it. I posted a few statements on the pre existence in a response to Liz that you should read.

You're cheating a bit, though. ;)

Let's go directly to the source. Here is what Joseph Smith said in the Pearl of Great Price, Abraham 3:22:

"22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;"

Based on this statement, the other conclusions were inferred, which I believe came from these other author's own prejudices.

[_Seven]

Pain and suffering comes to us all, but it's not equal or comparable to the horrors and atrocities that some will experience in this life. I would rather God answer their prayers for intervention than what might seem important to me or other people living in better circumstances.

This reminds me of that movie "As Good as it Gets."

MELVIN
You like sad stories -- you want
mine.



CAROL
Well, you know -- I still stay
what I said. You've got to get
past it all when it comes to your
parents. We all have these horror
stories to get over.



MELVIN
That's not true. Some of us have
great stories... pretty stories
that take place at lakes with
boats and friends and noodle
salad. Just not anybody in this
car. But lots of people -- that's
their story -- good times and
noodle salad... and that's what
makes it hard. Not that you had
it bad but being that pissed that
so many had it good.

[_Seven]

McKonkie's book, "Mormon Doctrine" has been labeled as controversial since it was published. David O. McKay and other Church leaders were not in agreement at all about a lot of the material. It was left to stand so that McKonkie wouldn't suffer embarrassment, but like the JoD, is not considered official Church canon.

Seven, do you live in Utah? There seem to be more LDS folks with the kind of fundamentalist thinking you describe in that part of U.S.

Just curious.

No, I live in California. I am kind of surprised you haven't heard this belief from other LDS before. I thought it was the standard belief by Chapel Mormons.

[_Yoda]

McKonkie's book, "Mormon Doctrine" has been labeled as controversial since it was published. David O. McKay and other Church leaders were not in agreement at all about a lot of the material. It was left to stand so that McKonkie wouldn't suffer embarrassment, but like the JoD, is not considered official Church canon.

Seven, do you live in Utah? There seem to be more LDS folks with the kind of fundamentalist thinking you describe in that part of U.S.

Just curious.

No, I live in California. I am kind of surprised you haven't heard this belief from other LDS before. I thought it was the standard belief by Chapel Mormons.

Wow! This is really getting wild.

I grew up in Northern California and was never taught this. My parents were fairly liberal Mormons, though, so maybe they weren't your classic "Chapel Mormons". LOL

My grandparents, however, most certainly were. They actually knew President Kimball quite well. And neither of them EVER mentioned any of this.

[_Some Schmo]

A few comments:

1. If we are constrained in what we can ask for, in our prayers, our agency is the victim. Pray for world peace, and then do something to make it happen. Pray to end world hunger, and then do something to make it happen. Pray to find your car keys, and then look for them! I've never heard of anyone having their car keys appear in their hand after they prayed about it. Even finding car keys requires action.

2. If finding lost car keys is important (can't get to work, can't take children to school, missed plane so didn't go to training so got fired so family is now homeless) then I don't see why asking for a little help is such a bad thing. Who are we to judge what is important in each life?

3. Just because we live in a place where we don't have neighbors who go to war against us doesn't mean we all have an easy life. The consequences of our choices follow us, no matter where we live. Those who live in Africa and have unprotected sex with multiple partners are quite likely to catch AIDS. That is a consequence of their choice. That the resulting children also have AIDS is a consequence of the parents' choice. Why should God remove the consequence of the parents choice? To do so would negate their agency. Is the child worth more to God than the parents? Blame the parents, not God. Same goes for the warring tribes. It's their choice to go to war, their choice to attack children with machetes. Blame the tribesmen, not God. Were he to take their agency away, he could do the same to us.

God is no respector of persons. Therein lies the greatest blessing he could give us. The rain falls on the rich and the poor alike. We are required to care for our brothers, love our enemies, comfort the grieving and feed the poor. Do we? Or do we expect God to do it for us? Do we give what we have freely, or do we complain that we are made to feel guilty because we only grudgingly give it away? People are dying in Africa, yes, and everywhere else around the world. They always have. They always will. It is the nature of life. The only thing we can change is How. The choices we make in life is what determines the how of our death. Does the African tribeman choose to weild a machete in order to steal another's land and home? Or does he choose instead to be a healer, a peacemaker, a leader of his tribe in more modern ways? He chooses his own path, just as we choose ours. God will not take the agency given to anyone, not even those who do evil or whose choices mean dire consequences for others.

All of the suffering in this world is caused by men, not God.

I just wonder then, what is the point of God? What does He do?

This is exactly how I would have responded to this post had you not done it first.

It just goes to show that god is a superfluous part of the reality equation. I can help the poor. Whether I pray before I do it or not has no bearing on the outcome, except to delay helping the poor. I can look for my car keys. Whether I pray before I do it or not has no bearing on the outcome, except to delay finding my car keys.

There is no doubt that praying works... as long as you count the few hits and ignore the millions of misses, or call them "God said no."

[_Seven]

Nehor:
The teachings on the Premortal world being taught DO NOT teach that.

Even Joseph Smith taught it. I posted a few statements on the pre existence in a response to Liz that you should read.

You're cheating a bit, though. ;)

Let's go directly to the source. Here is what Joseph Smith said in the Pearl of Great Price, Abraham 3:22:

"22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;"

Based on this statement, the other conclusions were inferred, which I believe came from these other author's own prejudices.

Don't LDS believe they are the noble and great ones saved for the last days? As for the racist and prejudices from several apostles and Prophets regarding the pre existence, when did these teachings about the noble ones being born in America vs. Africa, China, etc. change? Even though the ban was lifted, I am not aware of any teaching to refute the doctrine on the pre existence. (that where we are born is a reflection of our obedience before we came here)

I'll need to do more searching on the teachings of Joseph Smith and get back to you.

[_asbestosman]

I just wonder then, what is the point of God? What does He do?

This is exactly how I would have responded to this post had you not done it first.

It just goes to show that god is a superfluous part of the reality equation. I can help the poor. Whether I pray before I do it or not has no bearing on the outcome, except to delay helping the poor. I can look for my car keys. Whether I pray before I do it or not has no bearing on the outcome, except to delay finding my car keys.

There is no doubt that praying works... as long as you count the few hits and ignore the millions of misses, or call them "God said no."

God gives us hope that we can make a difference. God gives us comfort that things will turn out better and perspective that our personal suffering doesn't matter a hill of beans compared to the expanse of time and space. God also gives us direction by pointing out not only what people have done in the past and present to address problems, but also by inspiring them to address them.

Many of us believe that if God stopped that we would notice the difference, but of course God doesn't tend to indisputably prove His hand in anything.

[_Seven]

McKonkie's book, "Mormon Doctrine" has been labeled as controversial since it was published. David O. McKay and other Church leaders were not in agreement at all about a lot of the material. It was left to stand so that McKonkie wouldn't suffer embarrassment, but like the JoD, is not considered official Church canon.

Seven, do you live in Utah? There seem to be more LDS folks with the kind of fundamentalist thinking you describe in that part of U.S.

Just curious.

No, I live in California. I am kind of surprised you haven't heard this belief from other LDS before. I thought it was the standard belief by Chapel Mormons.

Wow! This is really getting wild.

I grew up in Northern California and was never taught this. My parents were fairly liberal Mormons, though, so maybe they weren't your classic "Chapel Mormons". LOL

My grandparents, however, most certainly were. They actually knew President Kimball quite well. And neither of them EVER mentioned any of this.

That is wild. I am in Northern Cali too. :) Lots of LDS around here. The people I discussed this with are mostly Chapel Mormons, and a few internet Mormons. It would make for an interesting discussion at church to see why members believe God answers their prayers and not those of the millions of innocent people suffering around the world.

[_asbestosman]

Don't LDS believe they are the noble and great ones saved for the last days? As for the racist and prejudices from several apostles and Prophets regarding the pre existence, when did these teachings about the noble ones being born in America vs. Africa, China, etc. change? Even though the ban was lifted, I am not aware of any teaching to refute the doctrine on the pre existence. (that where we are born is a reflection of our obedience before we came here)

Many LDS believe they are the noble and great ones and many are told that. Personally I have wondered whether I wasn't born LDS because I'm an ignoble and pathetic one who might not accept things any other way so the deck was stacked this way.

I have also heard members suggest that the noble and great ones include Mother Teresa, Ghandi, Martin Luther King Jr., Confuscious, Siddhartha Gautama, and others like that.