Assuring a successful life journey

[_truth dancer]

Hi Wade...

For those that it doesn't help assure a successful life journey, are there other viable ways that do help? And, if so, what are they, and how do they work?

Of course, I am not an expert but I have a sense there are those who are not quite so goal oriented.

I know those who are more concerned with the present moment, who are not concerned with the future or accomplishment or measurements.

I think of spiritual masters, gurus, monks, etc, who seem to have released desire, or those for whom life is not about obtaining happiness, believing happiness is the natural state of the human.

Also, there are those who have obtained Moksha (not our Mok... smile), and who feel there is no need to be here or anywhere, nothing to do, nothing not to do.

While a goal oriented life is common and works for some, my observation is that there are other ways of experiencing peace, joy, happiness, etc.

:-)

~dancer~

[_wenglund]

Hi Wade...

I understand your point but I see it a bit differently. :-)

I think often, we as humans find ourselves in situations where we must find a new way. (I actually think this is true of all of life and how species originate but that is another topic... smile)!

Say, if one gets fired from a job, they may be in a state of crisis for a time until they find a new one. (It may be easier to have had a nice job all lined up but some would suggest the search creates new opportunities that they would not have thought of).

Or, if someone moves to a new area of the country, it may take a while to find various support services. (Again, it may be nice to have all the ducks in a row before moving but it seems typical to take some time to get things organized).

Let's say a student had a particular degree in mind but after a year or two realized it was not for her, it may take some time to figure out what is the right major.

And, with religion, for those who discover their faith tradition is not working for them, or it is not true, or there are some sort of problems, I think one can let go of the belief and take some time to figure out what is more healthy or true or whatever.

I'm not suggesting one way is better than another only that normal life seems to allow for us to find our way out of chaos. We often grow from the disorder. The challenge and the process may be important for the discovery.

~dancer~

I realize that even with the best laid plans things may go awry.

However, I would think it better to make preferred changes in plans (i.e. find more preferred answers to the planning and implementation questions) where possible, rather than leaving things to chaos and disorder. You seem to think otherwise.

And, I have found that the growth and discovery that have come to me from experiencing the challenges of chaos and disorder, consist of having reinforced strongly to my mind the indispensible value of order and sensibleness through effectual planning and implementation.

But, that may just be me. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_wenglund]

Wade, thanks for a thought provoking thread.

In many ways, life's spiritual journey can have some parallels to a globe trekking trip (or even to the grocery store). As you say, on your spiritual journey it is imperative to determine the beliefs that will aid and guide you on your journey I like your consideration of a route and mode of transportation. For myself, I have preferred the watercourse way whenever possible, giving only slight nudges when I have hit an embankment or gotten snagged by an impediment. I keep telling myself that the grass being greener on the far embankment is only illusory. Anyway, I know that the river will eventually lead to the Sea of Humanity. Hopefully there Jesus will see we are drowning.

As a "water-oriented" person, myself, what you just said resonates with me. I just hope that I don't find myself up a creek without a paddle. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Runtu]

I realize that even with the best laid plans things may go awry.

However, I would think it better to make preferred changes in plans (I.e. find more preferred answers to the planning and implementation questions) where possible, rather than leaving things to chaos and disorder. You seem to think otherwise.

And, I have found that the growth and discovery that have come to me from experiencing the challenges of chaos and disorder, consist of having reinforced strongly to my mind the indispensible value of order and sensibleness through effectual planning and implementation.

But, that may just be me. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I suspect we're just talking about different approaches to life. You need to have a plan and stick to it, though obviously you adjust as you go along. Having that kind of plan works for you. Others thrive on living in the moment and following life where it takes them. I suspect you would not do very well if you were forced to live like that. Others may not do so well with your planned-out lifestyle.

Kind of reminds me of our family vacations. We used to plan them out in detail, saying we had 2 hours for this activity, and then we'd go to lunch and then do something specific until dinnertime. We ended up too focused on making sure we kept to the schedule and not enough time actually enjoying ourselves. These days, when we go on vacation, we list all the possible things we could do in a given place and then decide what we want to do when we get there, depending on how we're feeling. That seems to work better for our family.

[_truth dancer]

However, I would think it better to make preferred changes in plans (I.e. find more preferred answers to the planning and implementation questions) where possible, rather than leaving things to chaos and disorder. You seem to think otherwise.

It depends. I think there is value in not knowing, or having everything figured out. It allows for spontinaity and creativity. I'm not saying it is always easy or even preferred but it seems to be the way of life and part of the journey for many,

And, I have found that the growth and discovery that have come to me from experiencing the challenges of chaos and disorder, consist of having reinforced strongly to my mind the indispensible value of order and sensibleness through effectual planning and implementation.

I think many are uncomfortable with the chaos and disorder. It is certainly not a lot of "fun." (smile) But again, I have a sense that there is value in it. It seems that often life requires chaos to create. Again, I'm not suggesting it is preferred or not preferred, just the way of life.

But, that may just be me. ;-)

I'm sure others agree with your experience. :-)

I think humans generally like what is predictable, structured, orderly... it makes life easier for sure!
~dancer~

[_wenglund]

Hi Wade...

For those that it doesn't help assure a successful life journey, are there other viable ways that do help? And, if so, what are they, and how do they work?

Of course, I am not an expert but I have a sense there are those who are not quite so goal oriented.

I know those who are more concerned with the present moment, who are not concerned with the future or accomplishment or measurements.

I think of spiritual masters, gurus, monks, etc, who seem to have released desire, or those for whom life is not about obtaining happiness, believing happiness is the natural state of the human.

Also, there are those who have obtained Moksha (not our Mok... smile), and who feel there is no need to be here or anywhere, nothing to do, nothing not to do.

While a goal oriented life is common and works for some, my observation is that there are other ways of experiencing peace, joy, happiness, etc. :-) ~dancer~

What you just described doesn't sound like a successful way to journey, but rather quite the opposite. It sounds like a successful way to standing still or to do or attain nothing at all. So, it doesn't really answer my question. It just tells me that there are some who wish to go nowhere in life, and who think it best to having nowhere to go. And, they succeed in that default goal by having no goals or destination and by doing nothing and going nowhere.

To each their own. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_truth dancer]

What you just described doesn't sound like a successful way to journey, but rather quite the opposite. It sounds like a successful way to standing still or to do or attain nothing at all. So, it doesn't really answer my question. It just tells me that there are some who wish to go nowhere in life, and who think it best to having nowhere to go. And, they succeed in that default goal by having no goals or destination and by doing nothing and going nowhere.

Yes it is a very different way to experience life than what is common in our Western world.

But I would suggest those who follow this path are those who would claim to have a very fulfilling (or successful) life... my observation is that these "enlightened" souls are the happiest among us, (smile). What may be success to you is not to them, similarly, what success is to them may be very different than what you think of as success.

To you it may seems that goals are required for a successful life, but I would offer that to others, obtaining goals or having accomplishments are not that which brings happiness but enjoying the present and living fully in the moment, or embracing life in its glory.

To each their own. ;-)

Yes Wade... I think this is a very true statement! :-)

~dancer~

[_wenglund]

It depends. I think there is value in not knowing, or having everything figured out. It allows for spontinaity and creativity. I'm not saying it is always easy or even preferred but it seems to be the way of life and part of the journey for many,

I think many are uncomfortable with the chaos and disorder. It is certainly not a lot of "fun." (smile) But again, I have a sense that there is value in it. It seems that often life requires chaos to create. Again, I'm not suggesting it is preferred or not preferred, just the way of life.

As I see things, there is good reason that chaos and disorder are uncomfortable, and this is because human reason tends to view those conditions as destructive and harmful, and one's that we humans would be well advised to move away from, rather than embrace.

And, while chaos and disorder do often engender spontinaity and creativity, functional spontinaity and creativity, like functional planning and implementation, are intended to move us away from chaos and disorder, and establish some measure order and sensibility. In other words, spontinaity and creativity are opposing reactions to chaos and disorder.

I'm not suggesting that chaos and disorder are not valued and needed in life. In fact, I believe in the Book of Mormon passages that says there must needs be opposition in all things (order and disorder). Without chaos and disorder, we would not be able to descern order, nor would we develop the skills (be they spontinaity and creativity or planning and implementation) to bring about or maintain order.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_truth dancer]

Hi Wade...

Ohhh I agree that we don't like chaos and disorder. I'm suggesting there is purpose to them, and to value what it is this can bring.

For example, I had a client who was fired from his job... he was really strugging. But out of that he decided to start his own company which was a fabulous experience for him. If not for the "chaos" he would not have moved into what he wanted to do.

Another example that comes to mind... a couple who could not have any children, who had a very difficult time with this after ten years of trying. Their lives did not follow their plan. (You could say they were in a state of chaos). Finally they decided to adopt a child and would now suggest if it wasn't for their "plan" not working they would not have what they do.

I'm not saying we try to create chaos in our lives but my experience is that life throws curve balls and it is through our creativity that we can move to a place of harmony and peace.

:-)

~dancer~

[_truth dancer]

Ohhh I forgot to respond to this...

As I see things, there is good reason that chaos and disorder are uncomfortable, and this is because human reason tends to view those conditions as destructive and harmful, and one's that we humans would be well advised to move away from, rather than embrace.

I agree that there are those who view chaos and disorder as destructive and harmful. I do not always think viewing chaos as harmful is appropriate. I think there are those times when the disorder means we have to creatively find solutions to grow and develop (or evolve).

As I stated, I believe that it is through disorder that we find order, and through creatively finding our path that we grow.

I disagree that we would be well advised to move away from rather than embrace disorder. I'm not suggesting we try to create disorder in our lives... not at all.

I'm saying that when we are in a place where we are stuck, or struggling, or unclear, we can embrace this as a signal to create, or realize it is a time for discovery.

If we never had these times, would we ever grow? Would creation exist? Would life have emerged as it has?

I don't think so.

:-)

~dancer~