rcrocket wrote:It is the rich folks who decry the dumbing down of public education. Let them send their kids, exactly as you have done, to private schools if they don't want their children to affiliate with the riff-raff. But, please don't use the tax dollars of the 7-11 clerk at 3rd South and 11th West to do so.
rcrocket wrote:What makes Utah so unique is the supply of people willing to teach and take less. On a pupil-by-pupil basis Utah spends less than California does, but gets better results. Why? Because higher quality teachers are willing to work for less in Utah, and the teacher's union is weaker in Utah than in other states.
People follow money. They always have, and they always will.
Increase the salaries for teachers, and you'll increase the competition for teaching jobs, which should, in turn, produce better performing teachers.
barrelomonkeys wrote:Another problem with the vouchers is that most private schools do not (or are not equipped to) accept children with special needs or that are currently learning disabled in some area. And of course a larger proportion of these students just happen to be lower on the socio-economic ladder.
Good point. A vote for vouchers, is a vote for selfishness. (that's what my former teacher wife says).
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
Bryan Inks wrote:That's right. There's an essay on the rounds right now that claims that voting against Referendum 1 would be a vote for the destruction of Mormon culture.
As if the destruction of Mormon culture would be a bad thing?
Nope, I'm all for it, then we can start over with the Gospel and the Church and build a new culture.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
Let me tell you a story about math in the public school system.
Once upon a time... in an average middle school with about 900 kids in it, a first year teacher was hired to teach 4 periods of 6th grade math in a pod system. She absolutely hated the curriculum (connected math), but vowed to beat the system. She proposed the Friday Project to her supervisor a week before school started and received her supervisor's blessing. The project was presented to the parents prior to the start of school. Her students were all tested and placed in three levels: high, average, and low. Extra high students were taken out of the pod and put into a pre-algebra class. She had one High class, two Average classes, and one Low class that consisted of Latinos and a Russian. Every class did the Friday Project.
As many of the students were unable to perform the basic 4 components of math (addition, subtraction, etc), the first 4 weeks were spent on drills. Once everyone had passed the drills, they got down to the hated Connected Math book. Each Friday, after doing their classwork and homework, and behaving and participating appropriately in class, the students got the opportunity to demonstrate that they had learned the concepts presented that week.
The first Friday, each student drew their "persona" out of a hat, and that is who they were on Fridays for the rest of the 18 weeks of the semester. Everything was related to the persona. The personas were based on education achieved, so there was 1 doctorate in each class, a few masters, a few more bachelors, a lot of high school graduates, a few high school drop outs. Some of them had children, some of them didn't. Some of them were married; some weren't. With the college degrees came student loan debt commensurate with the degree (the doctorate came with a debt of $150,000, for example). Each student had to keep a journal of the Friday project. Some of their activities included:
*"shopping" for groceries (she took the food ads from the paper)
*finding housing (she took the want ads. If a boy wanted to room with a girl, they had to have notes from their parents)
*applying for a job (she took the help wanted ads)
*buying a car, complete with down payments, low interest for good credit, high interest for bad, and insurance
*paying bills (she gave them a "paycheck" based on their jobs. Boy, did that ever cause a stir, when they found out how little was left after taxes came out first!)
*filling out their income tax returns (she took real 1040 forms)
*shopping for clothes using a credit card (she took the Sunday ads)
*figuring out how much paint it would take to paint their home.
Among other things, they learned how much it costs to own a car, how much babies cost, and how hard it is to make a living without a college degree.
Second semester, she changed it a bit. They did probability, data collection using a 2 question survey, and she added in some geometry.
The test results for her students? She had 165 students. Of the 165, 160 made at least yearly progress. she failed 5 students. For each class: the High class made annual yearly progress plus 2 quarters, the Average class made annual yearly progress plus 1 quarter, and the Low class (remember, these are the kids who never get it, who everyone expects to fail) made annual yearly progress plus 2 quarters.
Was she given a ticker tape parade? A key to the city? A date with the football coach? No. She was fired. Welcome to the public school system.
I voted for referendom one. I doubt it has a chance, but I'm always for the underdog.
I'd like to see us break free of the stranglehold the state and national education associations have on the schools. I'd like to see the schools have to be accountable.
There is no way this would have helped LDS private schools. My two oldest daughters both graduated from an LDS private school and the head of the school explained (the last time vouchers came up) that vouchers for them were a moot point. In order to accept the govt. money, they would have to allow the govt. to tell them how to run their school. They refused to do this, therefore they would not be eligible for the voucher money.
Vouchers would have helped people who wanted to go to secular, accredited private schools and religious schools who were willing to accept govt. oversight. It would have allowed poor families to at least have some options for educating their children.
It also would have forced the public schools to raise their standards rather than look the other way when they are offering less than quality education.
I am in Utah and I am in favor of vouchers and will be voting for them. This comes from years of experience in trying to affect change within the current heavily-laden bureaucracy known as the Utah PTA/PTSA. It also comes from a dismal experience trying to get the school board to change (here in the Alpine school district) a certain evil known as investigative math. We tried for several years with no give, and because of parental frustration on this matter, charter schools have popped up (and flourished) everywhere. My son has been attending Renaissance Academy for two years and is absolutely thriving academically.
I have a 2nd grader in the alpine school district. I've been impressed with the math he's learning (and I'm an accountant). He's doing stuff (practical stuff) that I didn't know till much later. Granted, he's being taught a combination of traditional math, and the 'new' math. I think it's great.
Separately, you do know that vouchers have nothing to do with charter schools right?
Oh, and I'm definitely voting NO today. I refuse to pay for my neighbor to go to an LDS school. (I think it's called heritage or something like that - it's the school across the street form the mt. timp. temple).
They changed the math back because of parental protest. And I brought up the charter school as an argument for competition breeding better quality all around.
It is Heritage school across from Mt. Timp. Do you live close by?
In case anyone is not aware, I am not an isolationist. I am not a fundie. I am a mother with four in the public school system who is experienced with the ways and means of the public school system. I am very involved in my children's education and I am a parent who believes that the parent should have the flexibility in deciding which school ultimately would be best for their child. And yes, Who Knows, even if that means a parochial school. (I'm inclined to use the B word with your comments here, but will refrain)
All well and good. Make the decision about which school would be best for your children. I support you in that.
But don't make me subsidize it and take funds away from my child's education. If the public school that my child is in isn't good enough for you. . . then fine. Take your kid to a private school. But, I repeat, don't make me pay for it and don't make the school, already not good enough for you, worse.
I can't afford to put my brother into a private school. Even if I were to qualify for the full $3000 voucher, I'd still be $5000 out of reach.
The numbers put forth by the Ref1 shills are skewed. They don't take into account any K-12 schools, no 9-12 schools and they don't take into account several, rather large schools (such as Challenger) who refuse to accept vouchers.
All of that aside, the bill is unconstitutional.
You're talking about the Government giving money to a religious institution to subsidize it. Anyone remember that little bit of law?
Alter Idem wrote:There is no way this would have helped LDS private schools. My two oldest daughters both graduated from an LDS private school and the head of the school explained (the last time vouchers came up) that vouchers for them were a moot point.
So. . . last year? Or the year before that? Or the year before that? Do you realize this is the 7th time in as many years as this voucher nonsense has come up?
Alter Idem wrote:Vouchers would have helped people who wanted to go to secular, accredited private schools and religious schools who were willing to accept govt. oversight. It would have allowed poor families to at least have some options for educating their children.
Nonsense. It would have allowed mid-wealthy children to go to top schools that their parents could have afforded anyways.
There was a study done this year about this very thing that discovered that even if granted the full $3000 voucher, that would only significantly lower the tuition for about 10 of the worst private schools in the state.
Alter Idem wrote:It also would have forced the public schools to raise their standards rather than look the other way when they are offering less than quality education.
One moment in annihilation's waste, one moment, of the well of life to taste- The stars are setting and the caravan starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste! -Omar Khayaam
LifeOnaPlate wrote:Mormon culture is doomed! Vouchers defeated!
It's good to see that my vote finally counted for something here in utah.
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...