The sex thread

[_harmony]

Maybe you should talk to LDS men about how often their wives are uninterested, not adventuresome, too tired, unwilling to wear something sexy, think too many things are deviant, think sex is mostly just to make babies and so on......this is not just and LDS man problem dear ladies.

Leave it to Jason, to say all those wise and wonderful things.

Why do you suppose LDS women are unwilling to wear something sexy? Think that anything out of the ordinary missionary position is too adventuresome (deviant is such a strong word)? Think that sex is just for making babies? Who told them that? Who told them that over and over and over from the time they reach puberty? Who keeps telling them that, every Sunday for their entire adult life?

PS. Obviously non-LDS women wear sexy lingerie all the time. Victoria's Secret isn't exactly a small business.

[_charity]

Why do you suppose LDS women are unwilling to wear something sexy? Think that anything out of the ordinary missionary position is too adventuresome (deviant is such a strong word)? Think that sex is just for making babies? Who told them that? Who told them that over and over and over from the time they reach puberty? Who keeps telling them that, every Sunday for their entire adult life?

The attendance in your ward should be sky high if there is all this sex talk going on Sunday after Sunday. I have lived in many wards in my 47 years of membership in the Church as an adult. I never heard any such thing even one time. In fact, in one ward I lived in, one sister always gave the same present to the bride whenever therre was a bridal shower. Taped to the outside of the box was a note that said, "For when you burn the dinner" and inside the box was a very sexy teddy. Then there was the time when a young couple who not pregnant after several months of trying and the husband cheerfully announced at least they were enjoying "practicing."

Do you live in Utah? Utah Mormons are sort of weird.

[_harmony]

Okay, since I managed to inadvertantly derail the thread about the latest MAD bannings, perhaps I can redeem myself by moving the sex discussion to another thread.

Thus...

In my admittedly small sample of married LDS TBM women, the general consensus is that LDS men are pretty low on the lover scale.

Please describe the method for this study. A "scholarly" report, if you will. Sample number. Method of obtaining the sample. What testing instrument was used? When was the demographic information gathered?

I would like to know the details please.

Method: sitting around the quilt at Homemaking Meeting, the women freely discussed their sex lives. Heck, I didn't even have to jumpstart the questions. The conversation had been going on for years, before I ever joined the quilting crew. Free and open-ended questions drove the conversations. Subjects provided both the questions that were important to them and the answers. They also drew their own conclusions.

Sample size: less than 30. Mostly women in their 40's and 50's, with a sprinkling of 20's and 30's (I already said this). Subjects self-selected to be in the conversation (this wasn't a "study", nor was there a "scholarly report". Just several conversations over the course of several years in my home ward), by choosing to quilt instead of participate in a craft. And it was obvious we were having such a good time by the laughter and the speed by which the quilts were finished. Many otherwise unblessed families benefited from those conversations (the quilts were works of art given to the food bank for distribution among our poor here).

[_harmony]

The attendance in your ward should be sky high if there is all this sex talk going on Sunday after Sunday.

Sunday after Sunday? Don't you read, charity? I said quite plainly that these conversations took place around the quilts at Homemaking Meeting. You remember those meetings, don't you? Once a month for a couple of hours, the sisters get together and do crafts, learn to cook, and quilt? Well, in my ward, the quilting crew talks. And the talk usually centers around that which they find most interesting: men.

I have lived in many wards in my 47 years of membership in the Church as an adult. I never heard any such thing even one time. In fact, in one ward I lived in, one sister always gave the same present to the bride whenever therre was a bridal shower. Taped to the outside of the box was a note that said, "For when you burn the dinner" and inside the box was a very sexy teddy. Then there was the time when a young couple who not pregnant after several months of trying and the husband cheerfully announced at least they were enjoying "practicing."

I have lived in one ward my entire adult life. Perhaps in your wards, the sisters wouldn't open up because they didn't know you well enough.

And good for that sister! And those brides were lucky.

Do you live in Utah? Utah Mormons are sort of weird.

Uh... no. I visit Utah about once every other year. I fly through SLC quite often on business. But I would never live there.

[_Gadianton]

Mon,

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say we can adjust our expectations to anything and be happy, or that we should, but just some random things as to why it's complicated. You brough up another point questioning whether some even like it or not. Fantasy and reality are often different things. Even in other ways. Everyone would like to be rich, but, it's easy to find rich people who are never satisfied, or new rich who can't handle having the money and nothing to do. Or how about the brilliant one who isn't motivated, or has next to no self-esteem because one or two others in his field are clearly superior. I'm definitely not the type who just wants to lay down and die, resign myself to fate, but, finding satisfaction in life, no matter what aspect of it, usually isn't easy.

[_harmony]

Generally sex can and should be much better for women, if they have a talented lover to help them on the way.

Talented lovers seem to be in short supply in the LDS church. The church is much more anxious to create appropriate lovers (as judged by the 15 in SLC) than talented lovers.

[_harmony]

Okay, since I managed to inadvertantly derail the thread about the latest MAD bannings, perhaps I can redeem myself by moving the sex discussion to another thread.

Thus...

In my admittedly small sample of married LDS TBM women, the general consensus is that LDS men are pretty low on the lover scale.

Please describe the method for this study. A "scholarly" report, if you will. Sample number. Method of obtaining the sample. What testing instrument was used? When was the demographic information gathered?

I would like to know the details please.

Hey Charity;
read this story that I'm cutting & pasting ;.

Here is what happened:
I was 18 years old and just completed my first year at BYU. It was time for me to be ordained an Elder. I was home for the summer (BYU semester ended late April). I was in the Seattle East Stake

In our stake, there was some kind of stir, some talk going around. I was young and naïve, but learned it had to do with whether oral sex was OK among married couples. Apparently the question was raised in prior weeks/months, and bishops and the Stake Pres were attempting to give counsel. The Regional rep of the 12 got wind of this, and guess what? They immediately scheduled Mark E. Peterson to address our Stake at the next Stake conference!

It was Sunday, May 25th, 1975. They quietly scheduled a meeting for all ADULTS, to be held 3 hours prior to regular Stake conference. I showed up early, and it was amazing, the parking lot was totally full at 6:30am, with cars parked clear down the street. The chapel was packed to overflowing.

During this "meeting", actually a dictator-style lecture by Elder Peterson, it was said very sternly that oral sex is an abomination, and had no place in marital relations. wow, you could have heard a pin drop. Peterson wielded a mighty, authoritative presence. And he was a bit cranky. He seemed displeased that this was even an isssue!

He also spoke during our regular conference meeting. A long, boring tirade. He somewhat carried this "purity in marriage" theme over. I clearly remember him saying "you know, I've been married to my wife for 44 years, and never once have seen her body uncovered". Again there was silence. What a joke; implicit in his remarks was the idea that sex is ONLY for procreation, and the visual enjoyment of bodies is dirty, not beautiful.

Putting this in context, can you imagine the power & influence of a bigshot apostle coming from SLC, enjoying the unquestioned favor of 2500 people? And all this in the name of God? Can you say, "brainwashed, cult"? He put that sexual issue to bed, for years to come!

By the way, I had requested in advance through my Stake President that apostle Peterson personally ordain me an Elder, while he was in town that Sunday. At the last minute, I was handed a note "request denied, Elder Peterson much too busy"...... I remember being hurt and disapointed.

Nothing in this story surprises me. Not even that he couldn't be bothered to ordain an Elder.

[_BishopRic]

sorry double posti

That wasn't really worth one post, much less two. :)

What is your point with that? I suppose it is that we take what an apostle says every time he speaks to be revelation? And that makes us a "brainwashed" cult.

What those stake members were supposed to do, have been instructed to do, is to seek for their own confirmation of that. That is the procedure.

You don't understand what "brainwashed" was supposed to mean, even when it was considered a legitimate term. Which it is not now.

Charity, your denial is showing through again....

This "teaching," and attitude among many church leaders through the years seriously hindered sexuality in many Mormon relationships! First, Mormons are taught to look to their leaders for guidance -- in many matters of life. "Obedience" is such an important principle in the LDS culture that most members are constantly asking and reading for guidance in how and when they should go to the bathroom! So you don't think that a few high level leaders giving blatant, guilt inducing directives to not have oral sex isn't going to have an impact on spontaneous, passionate sex for Mormons?!

Wake up and smell the Postum!

I will tell you that it was probably the one thing that broke up my marriage more than anything else. My wife had some guilt issues already from a controlling, abusive father going into our marriage. After some counseling and work, she began to enjoy sex a bit...finally opening up to experimenting with receiving oral sex.

We went in for our temple recommend interviews (individually) in '82, and we were each asked if we had oral sex. We answered honestly, and she felt soooooo guilty about this, that her sex drive never recovered. Yes, there was the infamous letter that came out later that it shouldn't have been asked, but the damage was done.

Now your chronic diatribes about "each member should get their own confirmation if it is from God, etc.," are just sickening to me. These things happen in the church, and they have a dramatic impact on most members. In all your psychobabble, you really should look in the mirror and observe the trait you most project...

DENIAL!

[_charity]

Method: sitting around the quilt at Homemaking Meeting, the women freely discussed their sex lives. Heck, I didn't even have to jumpstart the questions. The conversation had been going on for years, before I ever joined the quilting crew. Free and open-ended questions drove the conversations. Subjects provided both the questions that were important to them and the answers. They also drew their own conclusions.

Sample size: less than 30. Mostly women in their 40's and 50's, with a sprinkling of 20's and 30's (I already said this). Subjects self-selected to be in the conversation (this wasn't a "study", nor was there a "scholarly report". Just several conversations over the course of several years in my home ward), by choosing to quilt instead of participate in a craft. And it was obvious we were having such a good time by the laughter and the speed by which the quilts were finished. Many otherwise unblessed families benefited from those conversations (the quilts were works of art given to the food bank for distribution among our poor here).

Harmony, you are in a weird ward. Talk about sex. But in Victorian terms. I am quilting chairman in my ward, and we don't talk about sex around our quilts. And when we do, it isn't in such Victorian terms. Our sisters are much more liberated, I guess.

[_Moniker]

Mon,

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say we can adjust our expectations to anything and be happy, or that we should, but just some random things as to why it's complicated. You brough up another point questioning whether some even like it or not. Fantasy and reality are often different things. Even in other ways. Everyone would like to be rich, but, it's easy to find rich people who are never satisfied, or new rich who can't handle having the money and nothing to do. Or how about the brilliant one who isn't motivated, or has next to no self-esteem because one or two others in his field are clearly superior. I'm definitely not the type who just wants to lay down and die, resign myself to fate, but, finding satisfaction in life, no matter what aspect of it, usually isn't easy.

Haha, yep, fantasy and reality are two incredibly different things. I don't know that finding satisfaction in life is really that difficult? Perhaps, I don't understand what you're attempting to say to me, Gad. That's the norm. I think we all may struggle with finding satisfaction in certain aspects of our life, no doubt. Yet, sex just doesn't strike me as something sooo complicated. I just don't geddit. :)

I don't usually have wild sex fantasies that can NOT be fulfilled... now, maybe I just can't relate... I think if you have a partner that is unwilling, uncompromising, and uninterested in mutual pleasure than you really shouldn't HAVE to resign yourself to that. Although, I don't necessarily think that divorce should occur over sexual matters... but quite seriously, sex IS important in a relationship. It's a moment of bonding, connectedness, chemicals release that increase intimacy, etc... It's just something that is rather important. It doesn't have to be swinging from the chandeliers, hot, kinky, passionate, wild stuff -- but it needs to occur fairly frequently ESPECIALLY if one desires it.

Uh, I don't really know. I suppose I should get out of this thread. I have absolutely no experience with bad sexual relationships (there is NO such thing as bad sex for me, and if I'm not enjoying myself I make damn sure I take control and DO enjoy myself) -- I have experience with poor relationships, though. Aha! Is that the key? Find a frigid, prudish man and I'll have eternal bliss? ;)