Moniker wrote:Oh, and Jason I suppose I am a coward.
When will you be pushing your handcart with your kids in it during a blizzard?
This winter. Unfortunately I have no children so will replace them with my autographed picture of William Shatner, my replica lightsaber, my X-Box 360, my first edition Wheel of Time books, my Lord of the Rings chess set, my PC, and my sound system remote to increase the feeling of danger.
Make sure you bury a few of your more precious items along the way to really amp up the entire sacrifice aspect. K?
Moniker wrote:Oh, and Jason I suppose I am a coward.
When will you be pushing your handcart with your kids in it during a blizzard?
This winter. Unfortunately I have no children so will replace them with my autographed picture of William Shatner, my replica lightsaber, my X-Box 360, my first edition Wheel of Time books, my Lord of the Rings chess set, my PC, and my sound system remote to increase the feeling of danger.
Make sure you bury a few of your more precious items along the way to really amp up the entire sacrifice aspect. K?
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! Oh wait, I don't have some of those things ;)
I was channelling comic book guy.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
If anyone is interested in reading this post about a REAL handcart experience, instead of the suppositions, posted above, you can read this.
Several years ago my husband and I went back to Maryland to take care of our two grandchildren while their parents became a dad and mom on a handcart trek on the Marriott Ranch. They had carefully prepared, they had met with their "family" several times. The leaders had carefully prepared, including places of refuge in case of really bad weather.
One young man assigned to them was a "challenge." He had ADHD, and many of his school and church experiences had not been exaclty positive.
They started out about 4 o'clock in the afternoon in great good spirits for their adventure. Bad weather happened. Not really bad weather, but horrific weather. The weather forecasters had not even predicted such a thing. 6 inches of rain and nearly 1500 lightning strikes in a six hour period in the area where the kids were trekking. Early on the leaders knew this was not just even really bad weather, and they headed for a refuge place, a large barn, which a few days had been empty, but which when they got to it was filled with bales of hay. They kept on going until about 2 a.m. they were rescued by ranch workers in 4 wheel drive vehicles that got all the kids and leaders into a large pavaillion structure, where they were at least out of the rain and wind. When the storm, ended and it was light, they had a testimony meeting and went home.
The next day was Sunday, and the ward sacrament meeting was tuned into a testimony for the young people to tell the ward members of their experiences. The young man, the "challenge," spoke, as did his mother, and as did my son-in-law about him. It was a life changing experience for that young man. Where as his ADHD had been nothing but problems for him in our sit down, sit quiet and focus on a screen society, his ADHD made him a standout. His high energy, his ability to go from task to task had been invaluable. He saw himself in a different light.
There wasn't one young person, or leader on that trek who wouldn't have done it again for such a result.
Even if it hadn't been such a dramatic event, what do you think is wrong with showing young people what it was like for people who struggled like that? My husband had a great-great-uncle who was in a handcart company. I had a great-grandmother and family who crossed the plain in a wagon train. What is with you namby pamby couch potatoes who think it is such a terrible thing for our very pampered young people to get a little glimpse of what it was like for pioneers? Gosh, 2 whole days? It took 5 months to go from Independence, MO to Oregon City, OR!
charity wrote:Even if it hadn't been such a dramatic event, what do you think is wrong with showing young people what it was like for people who struggled like that? My husband had a great-great-uncle who was in a handcart company. I had a great-grandmother and family who crossed the plain in a wagon train. What is with you namby pamby couch potatoes who think it is such a terrible thing for our very pampered young people to get a little glimpse of what it was like for pioneers? Gosh, 2 whole days? It took 5 months to go from Independence, MO to Oregon City, OR!
We've all had ancestors who made difficult journeys at some point in their lives, whether crossing an ocean or the plains. I had ancestors who were handcart pioneers, others who crossed in covered wagons, and plenty who came across the ocean in ships in one century or another.
I do not get into the business of criticizing how they arrived at their appointed locations, however difficult the circumstances.
However, I take issue with re-enactments of the same. Do we bundle our children up in bunks in the bottom of a wooden oceangoing vessel with diseases and livestock for months at a time to give them a better appreciation for their pilgrim ancestors?
I think handcart reenactment is something that started out simple and benign enough and got completely out of hand. Not only is it a risky enterprise in terms of personal safety to the individuals involved, it is damaging to the landscape, historic trails and sites. It's only benefit to the church can be in terms of binding members to it.
The road is beautiful, treacherous, and full of twists and turns.
Infymus wrote:Jesus Christ just give it up already. Mormons like Nehor and Bourne and Charity will defend their cult even if all of the evidences were laid out before them. In their eyes the whole handcart b***s*** was a blessed event. Brigham and his cronies did no wrong and all was wonderful, peachy and keen. It was all wonderful and marvelous.
It gets old watching these clowns defend their cult. You Mormons here should just quote entire posts and respond "I know the Church is true." and get it over with, because in all reality, that's all you've got.
If you weren't such a dumb ass maybe you would read what I wrote and what I write. Since you missed the entire points I made and clearly do not understand where I am at about things LDS and you clearly have your head up your angry exmo ass I won't bother to explain it to you again.
Uh, no! Even during that time period people were HORRIFIED by what they witnessed! See my above quote. It is NO less appropriate to be horrified THEN as it is NOW! Children and their suffering is always seen as horrific! What lala land do you live in where you think people 100 years ago didn't care that kids were freezing to death?
Holy crap! Is anyone reading what I said? Does not look like it. Did I say people were not horrified when children suffered? Nope. I give up.
Jason Bourne wrote:Many US immigrants left Europe, not just LDS ones, in hopes of a better life. From your present day 160 years later who the heck are you to question what was good and not good for their children? Keep in minds more did this then so called religious fanatics, which in and of itself is once again a rather nasty slam when you really don't know that was up. I am sure glad our ancestors weren't afraid an cowardly to tackle the unkown like many of you seem to be.
But the majority of them left in early Spring, not (suicidally) in late Summer.
All I'm saying is that I think parents should take care of their children.
I think parents should not knowingly put them in harms way.
I do not think a healthy message to send to children is that it doesn't matter if you risk the lives of children because you will be together in the next life.
I do not think a good message is that it is better to obey and have your children possibly die than it is to keep your children safe.
Again, I do understand the dynamics of early settlers, (I recently read stories of those who first came to America for example). I still think risking the lives of children is not a good idea.
I have a difficult time when I hear of children freezing to death as they traveled across the plains knowing that some leaders knew of the challenges and most likely outcomes that would occur.
And, yes I can feel sorrow for the pain and suffering of children. I'm not OK with it.
Further, I think any God that requires the suffering and death of children to establish "his" church is not a God worth worshipping.
~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
Uh, no! Even during that time period people were HORRIFIED by what they witnessed! See my above quote. It is NO less appropriate to be horrified THEN as it is NOW! Children and their suffering is always seen as horrific! What lala land do you live in where you think people 100 years ago didn't care that kids were freezing to death?
Holy crap! Is anyone reading what I said? Does not look like it. Did I say people were not horrified when children suffered? Nope. I give up.
Uh, yes. Can you try to recall what you WROTE?
This from the 21st century of your chair in front of a PC. Look, life wast really hard back then. Many children died at young ages. Many US immigrants left Europe, not just LDS ones, in hopes of a better life. From your present day 160 years later who the heck are you to question what was good and not good for their children? Keep in minds more did this then so called religious fanatics, which in and of itself is once again a rather nasty slam when you really don't know that was up. I am sure glad our ancestors weren't afraid an cowardly to tackle the unkown like many of you seem to be.
You are not only insinuating, you are flat out stating that I am using modern notions to be horrified by children suffering. That is what the above quote of yours states. That I'm looking through a lens of my 21st century comfy laptop pecking life. My point was to say that even then people were horrified by the circumstances. Can you try to keep up with your own arguments? Please?