1 Nephi and the First Vision -- Some interesting parallels

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_krose
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Post by _krose »

Doctor Steuss wrote:He did however have a secretary named John (some myths just get their nomenclature order mixed up).

Right, and there was a police official of some sort at the time with the name of Kennedy. I guess that's how these urban legends get started.
_Doctor Steuss
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Post by _Doctor Steuss »

krose wrote:
Doctor Steuss wrote:He did however have a secretary named John (some myths just get their nomenclature order mixed up).

Right, and there was a police official of some sort at the time with the name of Kennedy. I guess that's how these urban legends get started.

I didn't know about the police officer. It is interesting how these types of things get started. I don't know what people did before the invention of snopes.com.
"Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." ~Charles Bukowski
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

Some points I need to clear up here.

1. Blind Freddy can see the strong parallels between the lives and Lincoln and Kennedy.

2. Parallels don't prove anything, including the hypothesis of reincarnation.

3. There are obviously several mistakes, and some hyperbole, in the parallels.

In one of the original comparisons, there is this cheeky entry:

A month before Lincoln was assassinated he was in Monroe, Maryland.
A month before Kennedy was assassinated he was in Marilyn Monroe.
_krose
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Post by _krose »

Doctor Steuss wrote: I don't know what people did before the invention of snopes.com.

They repeated them (I've done it myself). Is there an LDS Faith-Promoting Rumor version of snopes? If not, there should be. I can't believe how many rumors I heard about some celebrity being a Mormon, or some missionary teaching a celebrity (or the Pope).
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Post by _Doctor Steuss »

krose wrote:
Doctor Steuss wrote: I don't know what people did before the invention of snopes.com.

They repeated them (I've done it myself). Is there an LDS Faith-Promoting Rumor version of snopes? If not, there should be. I can't believe how many rumors I heard about some celebrity being a Mormon, or some missionary teaching a celebrity (or the Pope).

SHIELDS has one, but I haven't seen any type of update to it since I first stumbled upon it (about 1 1/2 years ago): http://www.shields-research.org/Hoaxes/Hoaxes.htm
"Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." ~Charles Bukowski
_Blixa
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Post by _Blixa »

Doctor Steuss wrote:
krose wrote:
Doctor Steuss wrote: I don't know what people did before the invention of snopes.com.

They repeated them (I've done it myself). Is there an LDS Faith-Promoting Rumor version of snopes? If not, there should be. I can't believe how many rumors I heard about some celebrity being a Mormon, or some missionary teaching a celebrity (or the Pope).

SHIELDS has one, but I haven't seen any type of update to it since I first stumbled upon it (about 1 1/2 years ago): http://www.shields-research.org/Hoaxes/Hoaxes.htm


Its a good idea but they only have six items listed! SIX! Lol! I can probably remember over 50 without stretching my memory much at all...
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
_Doctor Steuss
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Post by _Doctor Steuss »

Blixa wrote:Its a good idea but they only have six items listed! SIX! Lol! I can probably remember over 50 without stretching my memory much at all...

If you click on "LDSWorld Hoaxes, Myths, and Urban Legends" it gives a few more.
"Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." ~Charles Bukowski
_DonBradley
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Post by _DonBradley »

Ray,

By comparing the Nephi-Joseph Smith parallels to the Lincoln-Kennedy parallels, you seem to be implying that they're on the same footing--that the Nephi-JS parallels aren't meaningful because we find similarly strong, but meaningless, parallels between Lincoln and Kennedy. This strikes me as quite odd.

Whether such parallels are meaningful depends in part on whether there is a plausible causal connection between them. Outside of very arcane conjectures, there is no causal pathway from the details of Lincoln's life to the details of Kennedy's. Is the case the same with Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon? Smith is the one who dictated the book, which would have allowed him to consciously or unconsciously place himself within its narrative. The baseline probability of an author (or even unconventional translator) sneaking bits of himself into a text is quite high, while the baseline probability of one person's life being magically duplicated in another's much later life seems quite low. You're comparing very different things.

Don
_Blixa
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Post by _Blixa »

Doctor Steuss wrote:
Blixa wrote:Its a good idea but they only have six items listed! SIX! Lol! I can probably remember over 50 without stretching my memory much at all...

If you click on "LDSWorld Hoaxes, Myths, and Urban Legends" it gives a few more.


Ahhh...that's the vault with the gems!

(though really just an iceberg tip, but thanks for the chuckles)
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

DonBradley wrote:
By comparing the Nephi-Joseph Smith parallels to the Lincoln-Kennedy parallels, you seem to be implying that they're on the same footing--that the Nephi-JS parallels aren't meaningful because we find similarly strong, but meaningless, parallels between Lincoln and Kennedy. This strikes me as quite odd.

Whether such parallels are meaningful depends in part on whether there is a plausible causal connection between them. Outside of very arcane conjectures, there is no causal pathway from the details of Lincoln's life to the details of Kennedy's. Is the case the same with Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon? Smith is the one who dictated the book, which would have allowed him to consciously or unconsciously place himself within its narrative. The baseline probability of an author (or even unconventional translator) sneaking bits of himself into a text is quite high, while the baseline probability of one person's life being magically duplicated in another's much later life seems quite low. You're comparing very different things.


Don,

I don't believe they are on the same footing, but I don't believe an example in "parallelomania" is unwarranted, even a rough one. I agree there is no causal connection between Kennedy/Lincoln. It's pure coincidence. There could be a causal connection in the Book of Mormon narrative, I agree, but how can anyone definitely establish this? What about the numerous parts of the Book of Mormon that don't appear to have a causal connection? It's like people who roughly compare the Book of Mormon to an "imitation" of the Bible because it has many biblical references, and in the KJV style, yet ignore glaring differences in content, and originality. As a serious student of the Book of Mormon, I presume you agree that the Book of Mormon does have a lot of originality? So how do we connect all of this originality to Joseph Smith's life and experiences? Here is a point to consider:

Little evidence has been presented to demonstrate that Joseph Smith had the imagination and intelligence to write the Book of Mormon. B. H. Roberts cited a passage from Lucy Smith's history, which he thought testified to Joseph's powers of imagination. Lucy said that following Moroni's first visit, Joseph continued to receive instructions from the Lord, which Joseph related to his family in the evenings: "During our evening conversations, Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of traveling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life among them" (Lucy Smith 1880, 87). However, no one has ever pointed out that Lucy's account does not describe the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon tells us that the Lamanites went almost naked, except for skins girded around their loins, and that the Nephites wore armor into battle, but it says nothing about the everyday dress of the various groups of people who inhabited the Americas. The Book of Mormon refers several times to horses and chariots, but most of the people seem to travel on foot; no one is ever described as riding upon any animal. The Book of Mormon does not discuss the layout of cities, the types of buildings that people lived in, or their manner of construction. It does say that people who migrated into northern territories constructed their buildings of cement, because of a scarcity of timber, and one passage says that Nephi, the son of Helaman, had a tower in his garden. These unusual features would certainly have deserved further elaboration. The Book of Mormon gives us a few details about the temple in Lehi-Nephi and a Zoramite synagogue, but otherwise provides no information about the design of religious buildings. Aside from a few references to burnt offerings, the Book of Mormon does not describe religious ceremonies in temples and churches; baptisms sometimes occur outdoors. If the passage from Lucy's history is proof that Joseph's imagination was so highly developed that he could have written the Book of Mormon, why did he not include the information which he had related to his family?


Then we have the spectacle of Martin Harris (or David Whitmer?) accusing Joseph Smith of "not understanding the Book of Mormon". Did Joseph understand the geography of the Book of Mormon? It appears not. We know now that the scale is much smaller than he thought, presumably because he didn't take careful note of distances and travel times. So if a case is to be made that there is a causal connection, it has to be examined holistically, not just in parts. If connections went clearly beyond coincidence, then perhaps a good case can be established. A good forensic officer doesn't gather evidence by examining only one or two parts of a crime scene.

(edit for an error)
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