Did Joseph Smith plagiarize the KJV in the Book of Mormon?

[_Runtu]

Charity: I'm still waiting: what is Isaiah 48 doing in first nephi when it was written after Cryus sent the hebrews back to Judah: it was written after Lehi sailed for the new world.

That is a question to ask Nephi about any of his writings. Did God give it to him in vision, inspiration, revelation. It was what it was when it got to Joseph Smith. AFter Mormon had put it together.

Except Nephi said he got the words of Isaiah from the brass plates, which he got from Laban. You can't wiggle around this one. Either it's an anachronism or a modern insertion from Joseph Smith.

[_charity]

And because mankind kept falling away, it was restored several times. Of course, there were the same ideas.

We'll look forward to the next one. When can we expect it?

This is the last dispensation before the Second Coming. There isn't going to be a falling away this time.

Yeah. According to whom?

Be reasonable here, hana. If you are in the concept of a Second Coming, and dispensations, etc. then you accept the idea of prophets who reveal things, too.

I realize that you aren't on board with the Church, but you can't accept part and not all. In for a penny, in for a pound.

[_Phaedrus Ut]

The article is a fascinating read, but not for the faint hearted. If you still want to maintain that Joseph “plagiarized” the Book of Mormon, DON’T READ THIS!

I've read John Tvedtnes' study on the Isaiah Variants in the Book of Mormon. Even in his very optimistic assessment, Tvedtnes notes that of the 478 Isaiah Verses in the Book of Mormon 201 are the exact KJV translation(errors and all), and 207 show variations. What explains the variations best? His own analysis shows it's the italic words in the King James Bible added for the English translation and the surrounding changes.

Nearly 40% of the textual variants in the Book of Mormon are the KJV italicized words. In addition, almost all of the variants in Book of Mormon Isaiah can be explained as the resulting embellishment of the primary(KJV) text . The only interested change is Nephi 12:16 & Isaiah 2:16. The "And upon all the ships of the sea, and upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all the pleasant pictures" quote. And as David Wright has shownthis isn't a preservation of a older translation. And without that there remains no significant parallel to suggest that the Book of Mormon Isaiah provides a translation of an ancient version.

Tvedtnes study illustrates illustrates some good points.
The Book of Mormon biblical quotes show almost complete dependence on the KJV text most often recreating the translation exactly errors and all. The Book of Mormon biblical quotes show deviation at the italicized words in the KJV printing showing editorial decision to remove these added words yet the need to insert other descriptive language. There is 0% support that any of the variants of Biblical quotes preserved or recreate an older Isaiah text.

What Tvedtnes really shows is the KJV is a primary source for the Book of Mormon, yet having a Bible open during the composition of the Book of Mormon contradicts what Joseph, the scribes, and other witnesses have said about the creation of the text. For myself in critically examining the issue it's very clear that we need to put a Bible in the room for the creation of the Book of Mormon.



Phaedrus

[_Blixa]

[
Guess what here. The Bible, the Old and New Tesaments, the Book of Mormon, all came from the same source! The Book of Mormon wasn't introducing a new gospel. It was the same old one, restored. No new ideas. The gospel was first taught to Adam. And because mankind kept falling away, it was restored several times. Of course, there were the same ideas.

If one's final argument is that the similiarity of these texts is due to them all being from the same source--god--then why bother with a thread grounded in concepts like "evidence," "plagiarism," and scholarly argument?

[_the road to hana]

And because mankind kept falling away, it was restored several times. Of course, there were the same ideas.

We'll look forward to the next one. When can we expect it?

This is the last dispensation before the Second Coming. There isn't going to be a falling away this time.

Yeah. According to whom?

Be reasonable here, hana. If you are in the concept of a Second Coming, and dispensations, etc. then you accept the idea of prophets who reveal things, too.

I realize that you aren't on board with the Church, but you can't accept part and not all. In for a penny, in for a pound.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

[_why me]

For myself in critically examining the issue it's very clear that we need to put a Bible in the room for the creation of the Book of Mormon.

Phaedrus

Quite right. That was my point too. But no Bible was in the room with Joseph Smith as he dictated the Book of Mormon. The Bible could not have been in the hat because I would think that the pages would be difficult to turn from inside a hat. The critics can not have their pickle and eat it too. To rattle off Isiah at the top of head, would have been quite a feat for any human. Such a gift would have made Joseph Smith rich it he took the show on the road.

[_Runtu]

For myself in critically examining the issue it's very clear that we need to put a Bible in the room for the creation of the Book of Mormon.

Phaedrus

Quite right. That was my point too. But no Bible was in the room with Joseph Smith as he dictated the Book of Mormon. The Bible could not have been in the hat because I would think that the pages would be difficult to turn from inside a hat. The critics can not have their pickle and eat it too. To rattle off Isiah at the top of head, would have been quite a feat for any human. Such a gift would have made Joseph Smith rich it he took the show on the road.

And that, my friend, is the problem. You take at face value the testimony of the witnesses without even entertaining the thought that the testimony might not be true. I don't.

[Guest]

Charity,

Wesley P. Walters has identified some 200 anachronistic Book of Mormon quotations from the New Testament. If you absolutely require the full list, I suppose I can scan it and email it to you. But since you don't appear to have read the David P. Wright essay yet, maybe I shouldn't bother? The following are a few from the Tanners:

[_the road to hana]

The Bible could not have been in the hat because I would think that the pages would be difficult to turn from inside a hat.

I don't really have anything to say to this; I just wanted to repost it.

[_ozemc]

For myself in critically examining the issue it's very clear that we need to put a Bible in the room for the creation of the Book of Mormon.

Phaedrus

Quite right. That was my point too. But no Bible was in the room with Joseph Smith as he dictated the Book of Mormon. The Bible could not have been in the hat because I would think that the pages would be difficult to turn from inside a hat. The critics can not have their pickle and eat it too. To rattle off Isiah at the top of head, would have been quite a feat for any human. Such a gift would have made Joseph Smith rich it he took the show on the road.

And you KNOW there was no Bible in the room how?