Tal Bachman wrote: Why is he denying this and other things? That is not so difficult to imagine, and in truth, I sympathize to a large degree with those reasons. But since the result of that denial is a false accusation, it's hard for me to restrain myself...and I suppose I am caught between an Aerosmith album and a hard place (rock joke). If I stay silent, it will be as though I can make no refutation of his false accusations, and if I lay it all out, I embarrass him more and hurt his wife more, and probably make myself look weak.
Tal,
Just be a man and restrain yourself. It's just a stupid he-said-she-said argument which you should be high above. I think dispassionate observers will tend to take your side because you don't have any motivation to lie about this. Since you can't prove that he really said what you are claiming he did, why get into a petty argument about it?
Show some grace and take the position that you related the events as you logged in your contemporaneous notes, and acknowledge the possibility that you may have misunderstood what he said. Heck, it wouldn't be an awful thing to apologize for making public the details of a private conversation. It’s not like you were morally obligated to blow the whistle on the discrepancy between his private and public beliefs.
It’s relatively easy to agree that only Homo sapiens can speak about things that don’t really exist, and believe six impossible things before breakfast. You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.
None of us were at the meeting, therefore it remains he said/he said. If he adheres to your demand to stop, you are trying to shut him up as your misrepsentation of his words seems to be his only claim.
So what is the nature of what is unsaid? Your side seems to think that you have threatened to "out" Keyes with this information. I don't believe your relationship with or affinity for this man is a close as you make it out to be, therefore, I think it likely you're just blowing smoke. I call your bluff.
Sethbag wrote:It's only regrettable that this becomes Jerry Springer material, when in reality what matters is whether the LDS church is true. The LDS church isn't true even if it were shown that Tal lied (I don't think this has been shown, I'm just saying this hypothetically), and the LDS church isn't true even if were shown that Pres. Keyes was 100% accurate and honest in every word he said.
But the soap opera stuff I find personally a bit off-putting, and I find the mad glee over at MADB about this to be off-putting as well.
I agree that this is blown too far out of proportion. I will point out, however, there is much more glee over here in Shadytowne over the whole affair. (Scratch's glee is downright laughable.)
Last edited by Guest on Fri May 02, 2008 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
One moment in annihilation's waste, one moment, of the well of life to taste- The stars are setting and the caravan starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste! -Omar Khayaam
But since the result of that denial is a false accusation, it's hard for me to restrain myself...and I suppose I am caught between an Aerosmith album and a hard place (rock joke). If I stay silent, it will be as though I can make no refutation of his false accusations, and if I lay it all out, I embarrass him more and hurt his wife more, and probably make myself look weak.
Indeed. I think you are laying the groundwork for a "face saving" retreat.
You don't understand: I feel totally indebted to Pres. Keyes. The guy threw me a lifeline when I felt I was about to be crushed by a giant avalanche (oops, mixed metaphor ha ha). He's free to email me whenever he wants, and I'll talk to him as long as he wants.
He made me realize finally I wasn't crazy or posessed; he gave me a peek, remarkably from inside the safety of the bubble, into "the world outside the bubble", and helped me realize that it was okay - that I could survive in it. And he did the same for my wife a week later, in her private meeting with him. My wife and I actually considered going to him a few months ago when we thought we needed some outside counseling help to come together more fully. That's what the guy means to us.
The irony is that Pres. Keyes is in a situation in which he is all but forced to not lay claim to do something heroic for me and my wife, and our whole family. He told the truth; he revealed himself; within the bubble of Mormonism, he was - is - a hero. But his circumstances force him to deny or evade that.
Yeah, I think you might be right about keeping quiet. That was really well put, thanks.
What do you think I should do if he persists in saying I invented the stuff? Just say, "I've already recounted the meeting as accurately as I can"? Like, what if he comes out and says, "Tal persists in misrepresenting me"?...
I think you're feathering your own nest Tal, and I think I understand why. I, for one, would like to see this thing go to the mat and to the finish. I'd like to see who is the one most likely to have fabricated something and who really has more to lose, based upon a larger public airing of the evidence.
I see, in the end, no reason to simply take your word over Keys, and that's all we have on either side.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.
Sethbag wrote:It's only regrettable that this becomes Jerry Springer material, when in reality what matters is whether the LDS church is true. The LDS church isn't true even if it were shown that Tal lied (I don't think this has been shown, I'm just saying this hypothetically), and the LDS church isn't true even if were shown that Pres. Keyes was 100% accurate and honest in every word he said.
But the soap opera stuff I find personally a bit off-putting, and I find the mad glee over at MADB about this to be off-putting as well.
I agree that this is blown too far out of proportion. I will point out, however, there is much more glee over here in Shadytowne over the whole affair. (Scratch's glee is downright laughable.)
I'm not a big fan of that either.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen