Would Mormonism be worth it if it were true

[_beastie]

With respect to the children who didn't make it back, I think the key, in Mormon theology, is the belief that wherever your children are, they chose that for themselves and are happy and satisfied with their choice, excepting of course those who become Sons of Perdition - and they still chose it, and even though they're miserable, it's still what they wanted.

Knowing that the children who won't return to the Celestial Kingdom are nevertheless satisfied with the lot they've chosen would lessen the distress of not actually living with them as a family unit, I think. At least, that's what we're meant to think, and there's some sense to it.

Don't think of it as "these kids are ripped from your arms by the cold claws of eternal justice, and you as a Mormon God just have to deal with it". Think of it as "you created all these children and they all choose what sort of glory they can and will abide, and will be satisfied with whatever level of glory that is, and many of your children will actually return and live with you in glory as Gods forever and ever". It doesn't sound so bad now, does it?

Here’s what it reminds me of. Let’s say Father Dearest is a doctor, from a long line of doctors. He has made clear to each of his children that he expects them to become doctors as well. In fact, he has made clear to his children that if they don’t become doctors, they will probably no longer be interested in his company, or able to tolerate it, because their interests will lay elsewhere. In other words, they need to associate with their “own kind”, nondoctors. Father Dearest realizes this means that his children will never see him again, nor he they, but Father Dearest is really into class distinction, and firmly believes nondoctors need to stay on their own side of the street. They’re happier with their own kind, after all.

Now, maybe Father Dearest’s nondoctor children will actually agree with him, in the end, and think they’re better off never seeing him again. After all, he’s clearly an ass. So I guess the real question is whether or not being a glorified, immortal ass who refuses to see most of his children ever again is a goal worth aspiring to.

But yeah, I do find the Mormon conception of Mormon men ruling over their own large harems of wives to be too patriarchal. It's male dominated. They claim it isn't, but it really is, and I find that objectionable.

Still, aside from the objectionable parts related to male-dominated women in a patriarchal harem system, I'd prefer to be a God for eternity than cease to exist.

Too bad it's just a figment of our imaginations. There isn't going to be any people becoming Gods after death. Oh well.

Not me. Ceasing to exist isn’t really problematic, in my view. We didn’t exist for a very long time before our births, and I haven’t been bothered by that one whit. Whereas being a GodAsshole is something I’d have to endure for a very long time. Ew.

The harem thing is really funny, isn’t it? Believers do their best to dress it up, but it’s so obviously the fantasy of a male who couldn’t keep his pants zipped that it’s laughable.

Now I will reveal my full nerdness in all its glory and admit I love BattleStar Galactica (the new one, not the old lame one). I’ll assume there’s at least one fellow nerd on this board. Remember when the cylons finally became mortal? Cylon 6 stated that mortality was necessary to fully appreciate life. I think there was a lot of truth to that. (and no, I’m not going to explain it all for the nonnerds among us)

[_ajax18]

Yup.

On the gross or the net? Do you have to pay your whole life, or can you time it so that you're paying a couple years before you die?

[_ajax18]

but Father Dearest is really into class distinction, and firmly believes nondoctors need to stay on their own side of the street. They’re happier with their own kind, after all.

One of the most soothing doctrines I ever heard in Mormonism was that we would be living with people who had lived the level of the law that we did.

Think of it this way. What if you had to live with people like me for eternity? Wouldn't that sort of mess up your happiness? What could be more fair and just than having people live with their own kind in their own "moral" class if you will.

We segregate threats to society in prison and that's the most forgiving of us. A large portion of us demand revenge as well. I don't see how God is much worse.

[_Ray A]

It sort of seems similar to what people do when they have miscarriages. I've heard two solutions that Mormons offer people with children who leave the Church. One is that God will kindly erase their memory of those children.

I haven't heard that one.

The problem with the concept of God is that it's primarily limited to speculative theology. I was a bit intrigued to read recently that Richard Packham believes that we're all born atheists, but religion and belief is indoctrinated into us. This isn't borne out by NDE research into children's near death experiences.

P.M.H. Atwater studied over 270 child NDErs. She found that:

* 76% reported a comforting "initial" experience. Such experiences involved up to three elements, things like a loving nothingness, a friendly voice, a visitation by a loving being, an out-of-body experience, and/or the peacefulness of either a safe light or safe dark place
* 19% reported a pleasurable or heaven-like experience
* 3% reported a distressing or hell-like experience
* 2% had a "transcendent" experience in which they felt they acquired special knowledge.

Following is an example of the most commonly reported type of childhood NDE, the "initial" experience. In an episode of meningitis, a six-year old reported being out of her body with a sense of being completely free of pain and totally surrounded by love. She reported feeling like a soul neither boy nor girl, neither grown-up nor child. She felt a sense of absolute peace and completeness. When she looked down, she saw a girl lying in bed and empathized with her pain. On reflection, she realized she must be that girl, and with that thought, she was back in her body.

This isn't stuff that can be "indoctrinated". Some have been as young as three and four years old.

Children of any age can have a near-death experience. That includes newborns and infants. What they describe, once they are able to verbalize, can be quite shocking to parents who are unfamiliar with the startling reality of near-death states.

Atwater's book The New Children and Near-Death Experiences:

provides an exceptionally thorough overview of the wide variety of near-death experiences (NDEs) for children and a fascinating description of how these experiences transform children's lives. Author PMH Atwater points out that while there are many types of near-death experiences, there is one identifiable pattern that fits them all... and this pattern sets the stage for great changes in the child's life. Atwater further explains how children born recently, the "new children," are demonstrating many of the same characteristics of children who have had NDEs. Many of these children view future events before they happen, learn at a very fast pace, are quick to recognize relationships, see ambiguity in what appears to be factual information, think abstractly, enjoy working independently, and don't want their giftedness pointed out.

You're not going to see this new generation gravitate to theological explanations, nor, for that matter, purely rational explanations of the universe. They will provide us with insights where Flat Earth theologies have failed and caused many to lose faith in religion and God.

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams

Just explaining why I think even some LDS theological concepts, as discussed above, are no better than fables.

[_ajax18]

Anyone need me to call 'em a waaaaaamublance?

I know you weren't saying this in regard to politics but I couldn't help but think, "If you don't squeak, you'll never get the oil." If you don't march in protest, you'll never get social change. If you're not willing to fight, you're rights will probably get trampled at some point. Maybe whining just means people complaining about the status quo when you don't share a common interest with them. Civil rights and freedom marching is when people complain and you do share a common interest. After all, as TD said, fairness is a human invention, and we shoudln't become obsessed with it, unless it's womens right of course. Perspective depends on what filters you're wearing over your vision.

[_beastie]

After all, as TD said, fairness is a human invention, and we shoudln't become obsessed with it, unless it's womens right of course.

You still haven't understood her point.

[_ajax18]

After all, as TD said, fairness is a human invention, and we shoudln't become obsessed with it, unless it's womens right of course.

You still haven't understood her point.

Whatever your point, I think TD only considers and promotes fairness when it works out in her favor. I would bet that you're the same way as are most people.

[_ajax18]

You're not going to see this new generation gravitate to theological explanations, nor, for that matter, purely rational explanations of the universe. They will provide us with insights where Flat Earth theologies have failed and caused many to lose faith in religion and God.

What I find interesting is that I've yet to see an NDE make someone come back and join a different church. Someone can correct me if they've found one to the contrary but most NDEs just encourage moral behavior and even going to Church, but not a specific Church.

I guess I fail to see the need for Church period, much less pay 10% of my inconme and another 2 year tithe on my life to keep it going. Does it really need to cost 10% of our income to do these ordinances that are supposedly so essential. I mean, that's all the 10% is really buying. Everything else you should already know through the light of Christ. And if you are to profit from the information, you still have to practice the self denial it takes for it to be of any good on your own IMHO So why do we have to spend so much money on Church. And if God really loves us and makes the commandments for us, what good to us is anything the Church seems to need so much money to do? Those are the answers it comes down to with Mormonism, obedience, commandment and basically, "cause I said so." Not a very warm and fuzzy feeling from my perspective.