Who are they dealin with for the $2billion?

[_Scottie]

I could never run a scam even if I were so inclined. I wonder if there's a "Fraud for Dummies" I could read.

I've got a GREAT scam cooked up in my brain if I ever get the balls to actually go through with it. It would make MILLIONS.

[_Jason Bourne]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the church still needs to account to the IRS, right? I mean, someone is looking at what they are spending money on, just not the members?

Or does being tax exempt mean they don't have to divulge to anyone, even the IRS?

Churches do not have to file a Form 990 so no, for the NFP part if the LDS Church there is no reporting. For the businesses that are for profit the Church owns, yes they report like any other company.

Other non Church NFPs must file a Form 990. I am not sure why Church's get out of it.

[_Jason Bourne]

Are the books open for Catholics? Can they see where Rome spends their money?

Where does the Vatican get their money anyways? The Catholics don't have a tithing system, do they?

I do not know about the Catholics but many Church's make public their financial information.

[_Gadianton]

Here's a better point of comparison: The Mall of America in Minn. This is a good comparison because this mall is "anchored" by Macy's and Nordstroms just like the City Creek mall will be. It was sold in 2006 for 1 Billion dollars, and the per square foot revenue is comparable. Well, that is, the MoA does 500+ per square foot, and the average Taubman venture does the same (the designers of City Creek). From what I can gather, I might be being very generous here as crossroads and ZCMI were in the 300$ range. Now, the most solid church-admitted figure I can find is 1.5 billion for the City Creek mall, even though I think it's really 2, I'll go ahead and work with 1.5.

There are a few differences between the two malls. For 500 million less, the Mall of America has well more than than double the number of stores (with slightly expected better retail rents). The City Creek Mall is 20 acres and the MoA is 97 acres. The MoA also has an indoor theme park with five rollar coasters and a water ride.

Ok, there is a second phase expansion planned for the MoA. This is around 1.9 Billion. It will more than double the mall's size, including stores and of course a water park, three hotels, and other stuff.

And while the MoA seems to do ok, well, it's a cash cow compared to what we can expect City Creek to be, it isn't without controversy itself and its worthwhile has been questioned.

So what I don't want Jason to think is that I'm complaining about the church spending money on luxary items while not giving to the poor or otherwise thinking I know better how the church should spend its money, it's a question of whether the church is going to get anything near what it's paying for. We have to wonder if pockets are being lined or if these decisions are being made competently.

-------------

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_Creek_Center
The City Creek Center is a 20-acre (81,000 m2)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mall_of_America
"On November 3, 2006, the Ghermezians gained full control of Mall of America, spending US$1 billion to do so."
"MOA currently estimates costs of $1.9 billion for the expansion"

"Sales per square foot stand at $290 at ZCMI and $325 at Crossroads Plaza."
https://www.icsc.org/srch/sct/sct0601/page1d.php

http://www.icsc.org/srch/sct/sct9909/18.php
"Sales exceed $500 per square foot."

Stores in Taubman malls average $508 in sales per square foot
http://www.forbes.com/business/forbes/2 ... 3/108.html

[_Danna]

My Catholic husband generally raids my wallet for $10 each Sunday as he packs the boys off to church for an hour. I consider it a bargain price for a kid-free Sunday sleep-in.

As I understand it, each of the parishes are self-contained, with money raised being spent locally, although that may change in poorer countries, and the vatican itself runs off 'old' money If I recall correctly. Most of the local parishes have quite decent land-holdings, usually from bequests, and get income that way. There is a modest little church in the middle of Wellington - many many years ago, my old uncle was on the church board of trustees and recommended they use some land they had to build a parking building. It is now a major money spinner for them.

The local parish made a very very generous donation to a parent-run trust which tries to fund behavior therapy for autistic children, including our little monkey. So we have been net beneficiaries of the Cafflicks to a very large degree.

[_Danna]

...The MoA also has an indoor theme park with five rollar coasters and a water ride...

If that were MY (fungible) tithing money, I would insist on an indoor beach/wave pool.

In fact, I might even make a $5 offering, earmarked for the City Creek Project indoor beach. You land-locked Utahans need to chill out on a beach every now and then.

[_Gadianton]

I think the problem is there will be no indoor beach. While there are plenty of millions available for it, either it's going to waste due to monolithic flub ups or it's lining the pockets of "relatives" and others on the take.

[_Jason Bourne]

So what I don't want Jason to think is that I'm complaining about the church spending money on luxary items while not giving to the poor or otherwise thinking I know better how the church should spend its money, it's a question of whether the church is going to get anything near what it's paying for. We have to wonder if pockets are being lined or if these decisions are being made competently.

This seems a reasonable question. Why is an SCL mall worth 1.5 billion when compared to other properties that are less price but seemingly more profitable.


I have no answer to this one.