Former LDS Believrs, I need your help

[_Maxrep]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZQJc5SxnVs

Hi Shades,

I don't have an hour to sit through the video. Could you just tell me what he lists as the top ten or so reasons?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Oh come on Wade, you don't have the time? Please... Your perfectly willing to enlist whatever man hours it requires of others to create your list, but expect us to swallow that whopper?

Besides, his presentation is considered by many to be a fairly encompassing description of problems of faith encountered by members, using church sources soley. It also covers some of the reactionary treatment that these members brush up against when posing their questions to other members, leaders, etc.

Viewing his presentation would be one of the more fruitful parts of your efforts, of which you have so little time for on this board and over at MAD.

[_Maxrep]

Additionally Wade, John Dehlin has literally interviewed hundreds of members who struggle with church truth issues. He is a source worth starting with.

[_wenglund]

Additionally Wade, John Dehlin has literally interviewed hundreds of members who struggle with church truth issues. He is a source worth starting with.

Were I looking for some indepth analysis of the issue, then your suggestion would have merit. But, I am not, and so it doesn't. Rather, all I am looking for is a quick list to aid in the pursuit of a another topic. If you wish to briefly summarize Dehlin's list for me, that would be appreciated. Otherwise, I will just go with what former members have told me here and elsewhere.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_cinepro]

I had two people I know this last year draw back from the Church because of the Church's political involvement.

Was recently talking to a friend who is a Stake President here in SoCal, and I asked him what the effects of Prop 8 have been. He said the most interesting thing is that before Prop 8, he got about only "a few" resignations per month. Since November 4, he has been getting >4 a week.

[_ktallamigo]

For me:

1. Book of Mormon authorship issues. The day I said to myself "the Book of Mormon isn't true" was the day I read Mercy Otis Warren's words and phrasing in the Book of Mormon.

http://www.mormonstudies.com/early1.htm

I could see that it was really a 19th century work.

2. Reading Craig Criddle's paper and the wordprint studies.

Since we are all supposed to base our testimonies on the divinity of the Book of Mormon - these two things did it for me.

After that:

3. The Kinderhook Plates - Joseph caught in another con.

4. The Book of Abraham - a con published for the whole world to see.

5. Polygamy - The charismatic religious leader sexually exploiting his followers - Joseph was no different from the ones we see in modern times.

6. Polyandry - The married ones too!! Carrying on with the wives after he sent the husbands on missions.

7. Joseph trying to join the Methodists in 1828 (or 27?) after he had supposedly been told by God that all churches were false and he should join none of them.

8. Finding out that the Book of Mormon was supposedly translated from looking at a stone in a hat, often when the plates weren't even in the house!! Why bother to have gold plates at all? Why was it necessary for the ancient Nephites to keep a record on gold plates if Joseph could just get their history from looking through a stone in a hat? It just defies all common sense.

9. Joseph's character - a con man. Even brought to trial.

10. The temple ritual - copied from the masons.

11. That we haven't received any "real" revelations since Joseph.

12. Brigham Young and the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

13. Learning about Blood Atonement and the Reformation. Actually, I should have made this one number 2 on my list.

14. Danites.

15. Holy Murder.

16. The Church's policy of whitewashing history.

[_beastie]

I would be hard pressed to consider any of these three as "anti-Mormon material", which makes me wonder if anti-Mormon material is relevant to people's loss of LDS faith, let alone relevant to the verity of the LDS faith.

I agree that anti-mormon material is usually not relevant to the loss of LDS faith, partly because members tend to avoid anti-mormon material to begin with. In addition, there is plenty of material within the church itself to trigger a loss of faith.

Whether or not anti-mormon material is relevant to the veracity of LDS truth claims depends upon the specific material. If it provides information that is pertinent to the basic truth-claims of the LDS church, it is relevant. Of course, I understand that you, and other internet defenders of the faith, believe that the personal integrity of the pivotal characters in the restoration is irrelevant, but reasonable people would disagree with that assertion.

[_TAK]

I had two people I know this last year draw back from the Church because of the Church's political involvement.

Was recently talking to a friend who is a Stake President here in SoCal, and I asked him what the effects of Prop 8 have been. He said the most interesting thing is that before Prop 8, he got about only "a few" resignations per month. Since November 4, he has been getting >4 a week.

Of course the Church wont disclose numbers leaving for fear of embarrassment .. it may prove interesting to see changes (Increase or Decrease??) in wards and stakes in Cali over the next couple of years..That, they do disclose..

[_Seven]

Most of my relatives who left the church, lost their faith over the doctrine and practice of polygamy. It was the catalyst that led them to discover the other issues, like the Book of Abraham.

Wade, you said on MAD:

My contention is that anti-Mormon material is irrelevant to an accurate understanding of: 1) the end that God desires for his children; 2) the gospel he has instituted for achieving that objective; 3) the role God has designed for prophets in relation to the gospel, and 4) the faith equation revealed by God. In short, for an LDS to have their faith negatively influenced by anti-Mormon material would necessitate their having not correctly understood the gospel to begin with.

How are you defining anti Mormon material?

Reading the unvarnished "anti Mormon?" history on the doctrine of polygamy taught by the Prophets who lived it was the testimony breaker for me. Learning that plural marriage is required for exaltation is absolutely essential to:
“the end God desires for his children,”
“the gospel he has instituted for achieving that objective,”
“the role God has designed for prophets in relation to it,”
and “the faith equation revealed by God” in gaining a testimony of that principle.

Either the decades of sermons on this requirement to enter plural marriage for the highest level of the CK are correct, or the claims of the church that it is led by Prophets are false. In a religion where eternal marriage and the progression to become Gods and create life to populate planets is essential to the Mormon plan (and the crowning glory) , polygamy is paramount to Mormon afterlife and Godhood. If the Prophets got it wrong on this doctrine, the religion falls apart.


You also said in your Lexus car analogy:

The private marital affairs of the founder of Lexus has no relevance to whether the Lexus meets the stated objectives of my friend and/or the stated intent of the Lexus automobile.

So is it your belief that Joseph Smith had nothing but adulterous affairs that had nothing to do with the Mormon religion/car?

I agree that a Prophet's sexual sins do not make a religion true or false, but if the founding Prophet of a religion commands in God's name to have sexual intercourse with him as essential to their exaltation, as the restoration of the Patriarchal order in heaven, then it is relevant.

[_Ray A]

Well you see, Wade's little exercise will only lead to one of two conclusions:

1) Exmos are at fault for leaving the Church.

2) Exmos are at fault for leaving the Church.

Take your pick.

Do you think Wade will ever say, "I see, now I understand your point of view."?

Wade is like the amateur psychologist who seeks to succeed where every counselor and psycholgist has failed in mending a 30 year marriage which has irretrievably broken down through years of irreconcilable differences.

It's simple, Wade, I don't believe, and I can no longer believe in the Church. And no matter how much you pry, ask questions, or try to solve the problem, it's not going to make any difference. If every point I make you're only going to say, but, but, but.....You're not really trying to understand, only justify your own continuing belief.

[_Seven]

Seven, I feel like you and I are kindred spirits in a lot of ways.

Thank you Liz. I feel the same. I've also noticed how many of the people I relate to on this board are also Star Wars fanatics. I'm hoping Kimberly Ann will invite us over to play with those unwrapped toys.