Why me's "Smith was Human" excuse..

[_why me]

Would the fact that Truth Dancer's question is ultimately unanswerable by humans perhaps be able to exculpate Why Me?

I attempted to answer some of her questions above. Her questions focused on Joseph Smith, the 'fraudster'.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Walmart,

If one's actions require perfection then no one is worthy of god's help or divine direction. To be a witness for god does not mean living in a monastary surrounded by constant prayer. It means living in the world and attempting to do right.

Regardless, the LDS church teaches one must be worthy of various blessings including the gift of the HG, the Priesthood, and eternal life. There is an element of "works" associated with the test, or becoming a God, or proving ones worthiness to God.

And, who said one cannot be a witness for God living in a monastary surrounded by constant prayer? (I mean besides you...smile)

But because we are human we make mistakes and succumb to temptation or sin. And I think that even Hitler could have communed with god if his heart went in that direction and he was willing to forsake his wicked ways. And maybe god would have softened his heart.

Do you agree with LDS teachings that one must be worthy to receive various blessings?

But here is the problem with you and other critics. You are full of judgementalism toward Joseph Smith and assumptions that are quite negative. How does it feel to be so judging of someone's actions? Good? Powerful? Supreme?

You and other apologists claim Joseph Smith gets a free pass for pretty horrific behavior because he was the prophet. Again, I highly doubt you would be so inclined if it were your daughter or wife who was the victim of a neighbor man's manipulative behavior to get them in bed.

Whether we are talking about parents who abuse their children, terrorists who slaughter whole communities, or a man who engages in horrific behavior using God as an excuse, in civilized society we must judge behavior for the well being of society and community.

The question is not if we should judge behavior that is hurtful or cruel but why do you judge Joseph Smith differently than virtually every other human being? Why do you give him a free pass when other men with similar behavior are held accountable for their actions?

I will judge Joseph Smith negatively if and when it is proven that he was an awful guy who desired power and was lustful. But I see no proof that that was his motive.

Again, the free pass.

Joseph Smith's behavior is no different than many other men who believe or at least claim they are an extraordinary special human, who God has chosen to change the world.

(Its called delusion disorder, grandiosity type).

~td~

[_why me]

[quote="truth dancer"]OK, so Joseph Smith was a human male and made mistakes. Fine. Let's go with this.

Again, LDS doctrine is that one must be worthy to receive the gift of the HG, worthy to receive the priesthood, worthy to receive the gifts of eternal life.

So, is a Stk Pres, worthy of his priesthood if he is engulfed in child porn? Is a deacon still able to pass the sacrament if he is out doing drugs on Saturday night and sleeping with his girlfriend?

Let's be real Why Me, you know there are rules and regulations (smile) in the LDS church, teachings that one must be worthy of various blessings, but you give Joseph Smith a free pass because you want to believe he is UNLIKE everyone else.

You may use the "he is just human" as a way to excuse his behavior but you give him a completly different set of rules, and the doctrine changes to accommodate his untoward behavior.

ANYONE else who engaged in similar behavior would not get a free pass.
why me replies:
Here we go again. No one is perfect and we all sin. That being the case, it should be obvious that one can sin and still be worthy to receive revelation. The question however rests on repentance and forgiveness with real intent. Who is clean from sin? Are you? With your understanding, no one is worthy and god would be talking to himself.

Also, you go by the assumption that Joseph Smith was engaged in sin over polygamy. He and others did not see it that way.

[_why me]

And if the mobs would have left the LDS alone, he would accomplished much more.

Actually, no. I think if the mobs hadn't killed him, Joseph and his cronies' off-the-charts behaviours would have eventually destroyed the church.

God will not be mocked.

The persecution started before polygamy not just against Joseph but against the church membership. Why? because god would not be mocked? Your theory has a fallacy.

[_harmony]

The persecution started before polygamy not just against Joseph but against the church membership. Why? because god would not be mocked? Your theory has a fallacy.

You weren't talking about persecution or church members, why me. You were talking about Joseph and polygamy. Joseph brought his problems on himself, from his treasure hunting to his failed banking to his multiple sexual partners. Yes, he did some good things in his life; it takes a really bad man to have gone all the way through life and never done anything good, but Joseph brought his problems on himself, and in the end, had the mob not killed him, he would have destroyed the church with his excesses. King of the World? Bleah. An ego out of control.

Try to remember when things started to go south so fast.. .that's right... after Fanny. After he got caught with his pants down in the barn with Fanny.

You may think God takes adultery lightly, but I don't think so and the scriptures support my position. If Joseph gets a free pass on that, then anyone who's been excommunicated for it in the last almost 200 years has a real beef about it. No matter what you think, there are not different standards for prophets than there are for the rest of us. God...Will...Not...Be...Mocked.

[_Inconceivable]

Three pages now - crickets chirping.

WhyMe,

Specifically -

What sins did Joseph Smith the Prophet commit that causes you to pass judgement upon him? You're suggesting weakness in character. I would defend myself from such an accusation. Smith is dead so he is an easy target isn't he?

You have piously indicted him as being "just as human as any other man"

You are labelling another person here as well. Who is the "other man" and how do you find their character's similar?

But perhaps you are the "other man". If so, what kind of man are you?

Is Thomas Monson the "other man"? What weaknesses might you disclose of his character?

[_Brackite]

nothing can be ruled out. But it is unlikely. My take on it is that something occured that made him be in a hurry. Was it god? an Angel? Something happened. But horny toadism seems unlikely. Horny toadism could have been satisfied in other ways than by risking his life by being sealed to several women within a two year time period. Have three women busy every other evening to satisfy his needs would have been one way to go.

To hear him tell it, he was being threatened by an angel. But I don't believe that polygamy was something he delighted in.

The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith:

(Name at time of Marriage, and Date of Marriage.):


1. Fanny Alger ---- 1833

2. Lucinda Pendleton (Morgan Harris) - 1838?

3. Louisa Beaman --- 5 April 1841

4. Zina Diantha Huntington (Jacobs) - 27 Oct. 1841

5. Prescendia Lathrop Huntington (Buell) - 11 Dec. 1841

6. Agnes Moulton Coolbrith (Smith) - 6 Jan. 1842

7. Sylvia Sessions (Lyon) --- 8 Feb. 1842

8. Mary Elizabeth Rollins (Lightner) - Late Feb. 1842

9. Patty Bartlett (Sessions) -- 9 March 1842

10. Marinda Nancy Johnson (Hyde) - Apr. 1842

11. Sarah Kingsley (Howe Cleveland) - < 29 June 1842

12. Eliza Roxcy Snow --- 29 June 1842

13. Delcena Johnson (Sherman) -- <July 1842

14. Sarah Ann Whitney --- 27 July 1842

15. Martha McBride (Knight) -- Aug. 1842

16. Ruth Vose (Sayers) --- Feb. 1843

17. Flora Ann Woodworth -- Spring 1843

18. Emily Dow Partridge -- 4 March 1843

19. Eliza Maria Partridge -- 8 March 1843

20. Almera Woodard Johnson -- 2-22 Apr. 1843

21. Lucy Walker ---- 1 May 1843

22. Sarah Lawrence --- May 1843

23. Maria Lawrence --- May 1843

24. Helen Mar Kimball -- May 1843

25. Hannah Ells ---- <Mid-1843

26. Elvira Annie Cowles (Holmes) - 1 June 1843

27. Rhoda Richards --- 12 June 1843

28. Desdemona Fullmer -- July 1843

29. Olive G. Frost --- Summer 1843

30. Melissa Lott ---- 20 Sept. 1843

31. Nancy M. Winchester -- 1842 or 1843

32. Fanny Young (Carr Murray) - 2 Nov. 1843


(Main Source: In Sacred Loneliness)



Zina Diantha Huntington (Jacobs):

Joseph Smith taught her the principle of marriage for eternity, and she accepted it as a divine revelation, and was sealed to the Prophet after the order of the new and everlasting covenant, October 27, 1841, her brother Dimick officiating.

[LDS Biographical Encyclopedia. Jenson, Andrew. 1951 Volume: 1 Page: 697]

Sylvia Sessions (Lyon):

- Faithful Mormon and wife of Joseph Smith, Sylvia Sessions (Lyon), on her deathbed told her daughter, Josephine, that she (Josephine) was the daughter of Joseph Smith. Josephine testified: "She (Sylvia) then told me that I was the daughter of the Prophet Joseph Smith, she having been sealed to the Prophet at the time that her husband Mr. Lyon was out of fellowship with the Church."
(Affidavit to Church Historian Andrew Jenson, 24 Feb. 1915)

Eliza Roxcy Snow:

"I was sealed to the prophet, Joseph Smith, for time and eternity in accordance with the celestial law of marriage which God had revealed...."
(Eliza Roxcy Snow)

Sarah Ann Whitney:

Three weeks prior to writing this letter, Joseph had been sealed to Sarah Ann Whitney by her father Newell Whitney.
(fairmormon)

Emily Dow Partridge:

Emily Partridge Young said she "roomed" with Joseph the night following her marriage to him, and said that she had "carnal intercourse" with him.
(In Sacred Loneliness)

Emily Dow Partridge And Eliza Maria Partridge:

Four days after his marriage to Emily, Joseph married Emily’s sister, Eliza. The details of the proposal and marriage are sparse. Eliza kept a journal but later burned it because it was “too full”. Years later she wrote, “While [living in Joseph’s house] he taught to us the plan of Celestial marriage and asked us to enter into that order with him. This was truly a great trial for me but I had the most implicit confidence in him as a Prophet of the Lord and [could] not but believe his words and as a matter of course accept the privilege of being sealed to him as a wife for time and all eternity.” Of the marriages, Emily said, “neither of us knew about the other at the time, everything was so secret.”

About this time Joseph introduced select men to the endowment ceremony. He taught that it was necessary for exaltation. Women would also be receiving the endowment and Joseph wanted his wife, Emma, to be the “Elect Lady”: the first women to receive the endowment. She would then disseminate it to the other women. The endowment requires a wife to be obedient to her husband. Because Emma was resisting plural marriage, Joseph would not let her participate in the endowment, thus risking her own exaltation as well as delaying ceremonial endowments for other women. Carrying this burden, Emma agreed to let Joseph marry additional wives; provided she could select them. Unaware of their marriage to Joseph months earlier, Emma selected her live-in helpers, Emily and Eliza. Emily recalls, “I do not know why she gave us to him, unless she thought we were where she could watch us better...” Emily continued, “To save the family trouble Brother Joseph thought it best to have another ceremony performed...[Emma] had her feelings, and so we thought there was no use in saying anything about it so long as she had chosen us herself...Accordingly...we were sealed to Joseph Smith a second time, in Emma’s presence.” Within a week, Emma received her endowment.

(Wivesofjosephsmith.org)

Melissa Lott:

On the same day that Melissa married Joseph, her parents, Cornelius and Permelia, were sealed together for eternity. As with the parents Sarah Ann Whitney, and Helen Mar Kimball, perhaps this was a reward for giving their daughter to Joseph in marriage.

Melissa described the contrasting elements to her and Joseph’s relationship, “I did not go to church with Joseph Smith, was never seen on the streets or in public places with him as his wife during his lifetime”. However, Melissa said they did share intimate moments, and that she was Joseph’s wife, “in very deed”. The following winter, Melissa returned to the Smith home to live. She continued to help with the Smith children. Joseph III, Fredrick and Alexander, attended the same school as Melissa, and she would escort them to school and back. In the Summer of 1844 Melissa was widowed when Joseph was killed in Carthage.

(Wivesofjosephsmith.org)

[_why me]

Three pages now - crickets chirping.

WhyMe,

Specifically -

What sins did Joseph Smith the Prophet commit that causes you to pass judgement upon him? You're suggesting weakness in character. I would defend myself from such an accusation. Smith is dead so he is an easy target isn't he?

You have piously indicted him as being "just as human as any other man"

You are labelling another person here as well. Who is the "other man" and how do you find their character's similar?

But perhaps you are the "other man". If so, what kind of man are you?

Is Thomas Monson the "other man"? What weaknesses might you disclose of his character?

I don't pass judgement on him at all. It is not my job to pass judgement on him. I am saying that he was a human being and because of that he was not perfect. That is all. What kind of man am I? I am an imperfect man who is not that righteous but Joseph Smith also claimed that he was not righteous. He was not perfect. I have never said that he had a weakness in character. I think that you are thinking of someone else. But I am saying that he was a human being and was not perfect.

[_Inconceivable]

I don't pass judgement on him at all.

I am saying that he was a human being and because of that he was not perfect. That is all.

Oh yes, you judge him.

Yet in the context in which you speak, you are accusing him of a worthiness (or lack thereof) that you are unwilling to quantify.

[_karl61]

Why me: I understand why this thread is so difficult for LDS to explain is because the LDS church excommunicates honest people who come forward and confess their sins. These people are not caught in the barn, not caught by letters that they have written, they come forward and admitt their faults. Then they are judged. Someone once warned about judging others saying that the way you judge others is the way you shall be judged.