Internet Mormons vs. Chapel Mormons thread on MA&D

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_why me
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Re: Internet Mormons vs. Chapel Mormons thread on MA&D

Post by _why me »

beastie wrote:
i don't know, bad habit. sometimes i don't catch myself.

i try to treat anyone who is posting annonymously as that.


If whyme is really Kerry Shirts, it is the best disguise ever. I would never, never, never have guessed it.

I am not Kerry but I am in need of a shirt. :biggrin:
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_why me
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Re: Internet Mormons vs. Chapel Mormons thread on MA&D

Post by _why me »

Gadianton wrote:Good point on the narratives. This further dissolves Why Me's very odd accusation. If there were two groups with two "languages" so to speak, then they'd be talking past each other. But Shades has made it clear that the Internet Mormon knows exactly what the real Mormonism is, there is no "translation" problem here.

Shades is basically putting two sub-groupings within Mormonism, each with their own set of beliefs about Mormonism and yet, each attending the same service on sunday. And as he puts two distinct groupings at loggerheads with eachother over understandings of church history and doctrine, he attempts to divide the LDS because each group has their own understanding of truth. Once he puts these groups with idenities of their own within a monolith, he becomes a spokesperson for postmodernity. Now of course, postmodernism is huge and hard to define but I think that the definition that I included in this thread with a section hightlighted in dark blue covers shades.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_Dr. Shades
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Re: Internet Mormons vs. Chapel Mormons thread on MA&D

Post by _Dr. Shades »

Man, oh man.

That thread at MA&D has grown considerably since I posted the link, and I've only had time to go through about 2/3 of it, but holy cow, that thread is beyond bizarre--it's downright surreal. It's as though the believers there are engaged in a carefully scripted absurdist drama, faithfully performing their song and dance of pretending to misunderstand the Internet Mormonism vs. Chapel Mormonism concept. Seriously, that thread far outdoes even the best episode of The Twilight Zone.

Fortunately, though, John Larsen, Nyal, and Gadianton have refused to let go of the beacon of rationality. Gadianton in particular has raised some good points that definitely deserve a response.

Among other things, he writes:

Of anyone I know, Dr. Shades is probably the very least in danger of becoming postmodern.

That's absolultely correct. I think postmodernism can be a useful tool only to the extent that it's employed as a gadfly to remind us to always keep an open mind and never to become complacent in our paradigms. As a way of life and as a literal worldview, however, I think postmodernism is a cancerous blight on the collective intellect of mankind, and quite literally threatens to undo centuries of human learning and progress. Show me a person who proudly identifies him/herself as a postmodernist, and I'll show you a person whose only destiny is to stunt the rate of mankind's intellectual progress.

Gadianton next reminds us of a third category of Mormons, the "Cultural Mormons," that Nibley identified back in the day. Now, the reason I didn't bother to integrate Cultural Mormons into the Internet/Chapel spectrum is because it doesn't belong: Internet Mormons and Chapel Mormons are two different brands of people who believe in Mormonism and otherwise take it seriously. Cultural Mormons, on the other hand, to some extent or other disbelieve in Mormonism or otherwise do not take it seriously. Thus we're talking about apples and oranges.

Gadianton also expresses concern with my oft-used hyperbole about Internet Mormonism and Chapel Mormonism being two distinct religions. Now, it cannot be argued that Internet Mormonism and Chapel Mormonism are literally two different religions, since each group attends church together, participates in the same ordinances together, and recognizes the exact same men as their leaders.

Literally speaking, the Internet Mormonism/Chapel Mormonism dichotomy is probably best described as two separate, identifiable paradigms of Mormonism, or ways of interpreting Mormonism, if you will. Of course, there are probably as many different ways of interpreting Mormonism as there are individual Mormons, but these two methodologies represent overarching, magnetizing trends that undeniably, identifiably, and overwhelmingly find themselves manifested in one of two venues: Either in the Chapel, or on the Internet.

So, why do I sometimes identify the two groups as two different churches, or two different religions? Why do I so stridently use such rhetoric? The answer is simple: The emergence of Internet Mormonism is so noteworthy, and so unprecedented, that its seriousness (especially considering its juxtaposition with Chapel Mormonism) simply cannot be accurately conveyed without a verbal "slap in the face" to the reader. Without using such words as "different religions," people are liable to pass it over without adequately comprehending the gravity of the situation.

So, when I identify the two paradigms as two different religions, am I just lying for effect? No, not at all. Let's examine our assumptions: What, exactly, constitues a "religion?" And if you identify a religion, what, exactly, constitutes a departure from it?

This hearkens back to "the fallacy of the beard" that Doctor Peterson has articulated on at least two occasions. As he describes it, it can't be disputed that Osama Bin Laden has a beard. It also can't be disputed that if he had no facial hair he would not have a beard. However, what if Osama Bin Laden had only one strand of facial hair on his chin? Would he then have a beard? Few people would say "yes." What if he had two strands? How about if he had three?

Similarly, what if Osama were to pluck one strand of facial hair from the beard he has now? Would he still have a beard? Few people would say "no." What if he plucked two strands? Three?

So, it's impossible to come to a worldwide consensus on just how many strands of facial hair constitute a "beard" while having one strand less constitues not having a beard.

So it goes with whether or not Internet Mormons and Chapel Mormons constitute two different religions, so-to-speak. Let's take our friend harmony as an example: She attends the same church, participates in the same ordinances, and recognizes (dictionary-definition wise) the same men as her religious leaders as anyone over at MA&D--just as the Internet Mormons and Chapel Mormons do. Yet although it can't be denied that harmony, too, is a Mormon, there is hardly a single MA&Dite who wouldn't love to see her excommunicated (if not outright tarred and feathered). Why is this, if she is a member of the same religion? In their minds, her particular interpretation of Mormonism has disqualified her from "mainstream" status; thus giving us proof positive that even the MA&Dites are aware of at least one scenario in which an interpretation of Mormonism can constitute being out of harmony (no pun intended) with the Brethren. (NOTE: I am not implying that harmony is actually out of, uh, harmony with the brethren; I'm only drawing attention to the fact that the MA&Dites think so, mistakenly or otherwise.)

As it goes with harmony, as it goes with Osama Bin Laden's beard, so it goes with Internet Mormonism vs. Chapel Mormonism: How many divergent beliefs is one allowed to harbor before finding oneself out of harmony with the Brethren? And how far out of harmony with the Brethren can one be before finding oneself a believer in a "different"--however similar--religion? There are no hard and fast answers. So I sometimes use the rhetoric of "different religions" because they sure look like different religions, even if, strictly speaking, they aren't.

So there you have it.

Switching gears away from Gadianton, the MA&Dites were able to bring up one accusation worth responding to, however: A few of them mistakenly believe that I simply reinvented or repackaged Richard Poll's old Iron Rod Mormon/Liahona Mormon model. Juliann "Transcript" Reynolds even went so far as to accuse me of outright plagiarism of Poll. Now, I highly doubt that Reynolds herself believes this; I personally believe that Reynolds's abject hatred of me and this message board simply motivated Reynolds to craft any hasty accusation in the hopes that it might somehow stick in the minds of Reynolds's fellow MA&Dites.

Now, I was of course aware of Richard Poll and his Liahona/Iron Rod model for several years before being struck by the Internet Mormon/Chapel Mormon model. It's impossible to participate in online discussions of Mormonism for any length of time without becoming aware of Poll.

Anyhow, Poll's Liahona/Iron Rod model simply examined degrees of zealotry among various Mormons. Although the first part of his essay focused strictly on how willing the groups were to accept the church's teachings without outside confirmation, the final part of his essay hinted at the strictness with which various Mormons might--or might not--observe the actions advocated by the Brethren (go to church each Sunday, always pay fast offerings, etc.).

So, in sum, the Liahona/Iron Rod model is about degrees of zealotry. The Internet Mormon/Chapel Mormon model is about sets of beliefs. Neither model overlaps in any conceivable way with the other, and I'm rather surprised that even the MA&Dites have so utterly failed to realize this. No, wait. . . I'm not surprised at all.

.
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_why me
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Re: Internet Mormons vs. Chapel Mormons thread on MA&D

Post by _why me »

Dr. Shades wrote:Man, oh man.

That thread at MA&D has grown considerably since I posted the link, and I've only had time to go through about 2/3 of it, but holy cow, that thread is beyond bizarre--it's downright surreal. It's as though the believers there are engaged in a carefully scripted absurdist drama, faithfully performing their song and dance of pretending to misunderstand the Internet Mormonism vs. Chapel Mormonism concept. Seriously, that thread far outdoes even the best episode of The Twilight Zone.

Fortunately, though, John Larsen, Nyal, and Gadianton have refused to let go of the beacon of rationality. Gadianton in particular has raised some good points that definitely deserve a response.

Among other things, he writes:

Of anyone I know, Dr. Shades is probably the very least in danger of becoming postmodern.

That's absolultely correct. I think postmodernism can be a useful tool only to the extent that it's employed as a gadfly to remind us to always keep an open mind and never to become complacent in our paradigms. As a way of life and as a literal worldview, however, I think postmodernism is a cancerous blight on the collective intellect of mankind, and quite literally threatens to undo centuries of human learning and progress. Show me a person who proudly identifies him/herself as a postmodernist, and I'll show you a person whose only destiny is to stunt the rate of mankind's intellectual progress.

Gadianton next reminds us of a third category of Mormons, the "Cultural Mormons," that Nibley identified back in the day. Now, the reason I didn't bother to integrate Cultural Mormons into the Internet/Chapel spectrum is because it doesn't belong: Internet Mormons and Chapel Mormons are two different brands of people who believe in Mormonism and otherwise take it seriously. Cultural Mormons, on the other hand, to some extent or other disbelieve in Mormonism or otherwise do not take it seriously. Thus we're talking about apples and oranges.

Gadianton also expresses concern with my oft-used hyperbole about Internet Mormonism and Chapel Mormonism being two distinct religions. Now, it cannot be argued that Internet Mormonism and Chapel Mormonism are literally two different religions, since each group attends church together, participates in the same ordinances together, and recognizes the exact same men as their leaders.

Literally speaking, the Internet Mormonism/Chapel Mormonism dichotomy is probably best described as two separate, identifiable paradigms of Mormonism, or ways of interpreting Mormonism, if you will. Of course, there are probably as many different ways of interpreting Mormonism as there are individual Mormons, but these two methodologies represent overarching, magnetizing trends that undeniably, identifiably, and overwhelmingly find themselves manifested in one of two venues: Either in the Chapel, or on the Internet.

So, why do I sometimes identify the two groups as two different churches, or two different religions? Why do I so stridently use such rhetoric? The answer is simple: The emergence of Internet Mormonism is so noteworthy, and so unprecedented, that its seriousness (especially considering its juxtaposition with Chapel Mormonism) simply cannot be accurately conveyed without a verbal "slap in the face" to the reader. Without using such words as "different religions," people are liable to pass it over without adequately comprehending the gravity of the situation.

So, when I identify the two paradigms as two different religions, am I just lying for effect? No, not at all. Let's examine our assumptions: What, exactly, constitues a "religion?" And if you identify a religion, what, exactly, constitutes a departure from it?
.


At least I analysed your position correctly. And it would make your analysis postmodern since you are referring to idenities within a monolith that claims absolute truth. By trying to implant the idea that this monolith has other groupings each claiming their version of perceived truth, you become a postmodernist. However, for a TBM both internet and chapel Mormons are united in their belief that the LDS church is true and their truth is absolute truth since it is god's church.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_Dr. Shades
_Emeritus
Posts: 14117
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Re: Internet Mormons vs. Chapel Mormons thread on MA&D

Post by _Dr. Shades »

why me wrote:At least I analysed your position correctly. And it would make your analysis postmodern since you are referring to idenities within a monolith that claims absolute truth. By trying to implant the idea that this monolith has other groupings each claiming their version of perceived truth, you become a postmodernist.

Holy cow, why me! Not even Evel Knievel could've made that leap!

By that logic, an entomologist who attempts to identify differing species within a genus of dragonflies is also a postmodernist.

However, for a TBM both internet and chapel Mormons are united in their belief that the LDS church is true and their truth is absolute truth since it is god's church.

Just like both Warren Jeffs and Thomas S. Monson are united in their belief that Mormonism is true and their truth is absolute since it is God's church.
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_LifeOnaPlate
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Re: Internet Mormons vs. Chapel Mormons thread on MA&D

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

Which one of those two is the Internet Mormon?
:lol:
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_Dr. Shades
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Re: Internet Mormons vs. Chapel Mormons thread on MA&D

Post by _Dr. Shades »

LifeOnaPlate wrote:Which one of those two is the Internet Mormon?
:lol:

Neither.

Keep in mind that the Internet Mormon/Chapel Mormon dichotomy refers only to those who claim allegiance to Utah's wealthiest sect of Brighamite Mormonism, so Warren Jeffs is not a part of this conversation.

(Tip for next time: Although you might consider yourself to be a budding comedian, please keep in mind the first rule of comedy: Stupid comment =/= funny comment.)
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_asbestosman
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Re: Internet Mormons vs. Chapel Mormons thread on MA&D

Post by _asbestosman »

Dr. Shades wrote:(Tip for next time: Although you might consider yourself to be a budding comedian, please keep in mind the first rule of comedy: Stupid comment =/= funny comment.)

Somehow unintentionally funny = Shades' favorite MDB poster, JonasS / pirate.
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Re: Internet Mormons vs. Chapel Mormons thread on MA&D

Post by _Mike Reed »

The shiznit is really hitting the fan right now, with Sethpayne calling "BS" on nemesis. Oooh. This is getting tense.
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Re: Internet Mormons vs. Chapel Mormons thread on MA&D

Post by _Gadianton »

The emergence of Internet Mormonism is so noteworthy, and so unprecedented, that its seriousness (especially considering its juxtaposition with Chapel Mormonism) simply cannot be accurately conveyed without a verbal "slap in the face" to the reader.


So I think I've understood it properly all along and we are in agreement. I think most of the MADites also understand this at least to a degree, but since they really don't have a great comeback, they employ one of Wenglund's favorite tools, the fallacy of over-precision. It's easier to do that rather than own up to the fact that they've ran off and joined an apostate sect.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
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