Simon Belmont wrote:Nothing can be proven, Polygam-Porter. All we have is evidence which draws us to a conclusion. So, what you are asking is just as impossible as what I am asking: prove that it the Book of Abraham was not written by Abraham.
Incorrect. We can't prove anything absolutely, but the use of the word proof is not meant as being absolute, but sufficient to establish something as being the most correct or most likely.
Simon Belmont wrote:Nothing can be proven, Polygam-Porter. All we have is evidence which draws us to a conclusion. So, what you are asking is just as impossible as what I am asking: prove that it the Book of Abraham was not written by Abraham.
Incorrect. We can't prove anything absolutely, but the use of the word proof is not meant as being absolute, but sufficient to establish something as being the most correct or most likely.
We can't even prove that there ever was a Biblical Abraham - how the hell can we prove or disprove that he did, didn't or couldn't have written anything?
"One of the surest ways to avoid even getting near false doctrine is to choose to be simple in our teaching." - Elder Henry B. Eyring, Ensign, May 1999, 74
SoHo wrote: We can't even prove that there ever was a Biblical Abraham
Probably not, we only have little evidence that suggest that he may not have existed.
- how the hell can we prove or disprove that he did, didn't or couldn't have written anything?
By looking at the document that one is suggesting he wrote. In regards to the Papyri that Joseph Smith had, we can see plenty of evidence that proves Abraham didn't write it, or that it talks about Abraham.
Simon Belmont wrote:So, really, your claim that "the papyri vindicate exactly what the Egyptologists said" is not entirely true.
I said they Egyptologists made two claims: 1) The standing figure is incorrect and 2) The knife is incorrect. Since it's clear somebody "restored" both of those things they are 100% correct on those two claims. Your citations from FAIR are entirely irrelevant
Simon Belmont wrote:Oh, you can appeal to authority, but I cannot. I see the double standard blaring in your words.
Simon, for a philosopher you don't know much about fallacies. An appeal to expertise is not an appeal to authority. It's an appeal to second hand empirical knowledge. Since none of us can have all the relevant expertise we would need to make all the judgments in the real world we must rely on the expertise (i.e. second hand empirical knowledge) of others.
However, since you seem to only accept direct empirical knowledge as relevant (otherwise one is making an appeal to authority in your eyes) I look forward to your immediate silence on all Book of Abraham issues. You will of course enroll in a reputable Egyptology program where you will gain the relevant direct empirical knowledge to discuss the issues surrounding the papyri. Once you have completed your Ph.D. we can continue the conversation. I look forward to talking to you about this again in 5-8 years.
There is a doctoral dissertation that has just come out of Germany by a young man who has taken over a hundred facsimiles matching our facsimile number three, private and so forth and so on, and compared them. The results show that they all look very much alike. But the accompanying inscriptions show that they tell the widest variety of stories.
Oh boy. If I were you, Simon, I wouldn't be using this to support your assertions regarding the Book of Abraham. You are aware, are you not, of the article published online back in April 2009 that completely and utterly refutes the above?
Geez, Simon. If you're going to go about the business of launching a defense of the Book of Abraham, you need to stay current.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
OK, I am not an expert on the Book of Abraham, Nibley, or anything else discussed in this conversation.
However, without even going into anything specifically, let me tell you what I see as CLARING problems right off the bat.
Really? Where is this doctoral dissertation? Who wrote it? Where can we find it? I'll bet you, a hot cocoa that there is nothing there at all. There may be a dissertation somewhere, in some country but I will pretty much guarantee it does NOT confirm Nibley's assertions.
We may never know. But for the sake of argument, let us assume that there is such a dissertation.
But for the sake of REASON, let's not assume what Nibley did not provide so much as a cite for.
I do not claim to be an expert in Egyptology or the Book of Abraham, but that is okay because neither are you.
Your mantra has been that the characters in the Facsimiles are not what the Book of Abraham says they are.
Nibley writes:
There is a doctoral dissertation that has just come out of Germany by a young man who has taken over a hundred facsimiles matching our facsimile number three, private and so forth and so on, and compared them. The results show that they all look very much alike. But the accompanying inscriptions show that they tell the widest variety of stories.
Yeah, but the question is, is that widest variety so broad as to include the crazy ones that Joseph Smith told about the facsimile?
Polygamy-Porter wrote:The only people who have a NEED to believe that Abraham wrote the "book of Abraham" are the members of LDS Inc who must.
The rest of the world does not even care enough to even look if there is anything valid about Abraham and his supposed book.
Mormons like Simon are required to believe that Abraham did write a book and that Joe translated it. Otherwise they are not accepted as members of the cult.
Sure they can not agree, but they know they best keep that to themselves.
I challenge Simon to prove the Book of Abraham was written by Abraham without using self induced emotional epiphanies, a.k.a. warm fuzzies.
Look, I am sorry that you are too weak minded to make decisions for yourself, but that does not give you the right to be angry with the Church, which did nothing to you.
Now I am confused. This is a believer saying this to a non-believer? I'll be damned. Another 180 degree twist by apologia.
We may never know. But for the sake of argument, let us assume that there is such a dissertation.
Having realized that Nibley makes up stuff, again, I highly doubt there is such a dissertation that supports his claims. Why assume there is such a thing? How about looking up the reference, if there even is one. (smile)
How do you know that other Egyptology experts disagree with Nibley about this specific point?
Because I have yet to see anyone come up with any expert that supports Nibley. as far as I know, every single expert disagrees with Nibley. If you can find an expert that agrees with him please share the information with us.
I thought you were not a Nibley expert. How, therefore, can you read his mind?
I'm not an expert and can't read his mind but I have looked up enough of his claims to know that he is frequently full of it.
Unless you can show that he "made this up" I do not see how you can simply dismiss it.
Nibley makes claims and expects folk to believe him. Over and over, his claims don't pan out so at this point, I think it is up to one of his followers to demonstrate that for once he is actually on target.
~td~
Truth Dancer here speaks volumes of truth about Niblets.
Polygamy-Porter wrote:I challenge Simon to prove the Book of Abraham was written by Abraham without using self induced emotional epiphanies, a.k.a. warm fuzzies.
Nothing can be proven, Polygam-Porter. All we have is evidence which draws us to a conclusion. So, what you are asking is just as impossible as what I am asking: prove that it the Book of Abraham was not written by Abraham.
In the absence of your Church's claims that the BoAbr is authentic, no one would give it any thought. So the initial burden of proof rests upon the Church. Only once it makes a prima facie case for that authenticity would it then behoove the critics to disprove it. You see, it is impossible to disprove something for which there is a complete and utter absence of any evidence for it in the first place. Place evidence on the table that the BoAbr's authenticity is more likely than not, then you'll be in a position to ask for counter evidence. Until you do, you are simply living in your Mormon fantasy land.