has l-dsinc submitted the papyrus to egyptologists?

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_Buffalo
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Re: has l-dsinc submitted the papyrus to egyptologists?

Post by _Buffalo »

wenglund wrote:
For good reason, the Church hasn't (nor have I for that matter), thought to provide ordinal rankings, in terms of importance and significance, of the multitude of doctrines and precepts in the various scriptures. That isn't how the gospel works or is intended to work.

In short, you are asking the wrong question.


The significance of the Book of Abraham to the Church is clearly attesting by the fact that it was canonized.

This significance is only realized by the individual members of the Church, when the Book of Abraham is rightly viewed and used and analyzed by them in accordance with the intent and purpose of thatr book of scripture--which has little to nothing to do with Egyptology.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


In the Book of Abraham we learn the important doctrine that the Canaanites were black. Since the Israelites are close cousins (brothers, really) of the Canaanites, we can conclude that Moses, Isaiah, John the Baptist and Jesus were all black. Now that's some tasty doctrine!

Also, per the curse doctrine, Jesus, Moses and Isaiah were all ineligible for the priesthood. Hopefully someone has given it to them vicariously by now.


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Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Baker
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Re: has l-dsinc submitted the papyrus to egyptologists?

Post by _Baker »

Wade: The significance of the Book of Abraham to the Church is clearly attesting by the fact that it was canonized.

Baker: It was canonized before it became abundantly clear that it was a pure fabrication. Had it not been canonized pre-1968, what do you suppose would have happened?

I imagine that it would have received Kinderhook-Plates treatment from that point forward.
"I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. ... Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I." - Joseph Smith, 1844
_wenglund
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Re: has l-dsinc submitted the papyrus to egyptologists?

Post by _wenglund »

jon wrote:Wade, we are determining the truthfulness of the 'witness' contained within the book of Abraham, I'd say adversarial questioning would be essential.

For the record, what questions do you think should be asked?


Adversarial questions are designed more to protect rights than they are designed to get at the truth.

Exploratory questions, on the other hand, are better suited to determining truth.

However, in terms of the restored gospel, determining the truth is secondary to, and a means to, accomplishing the ultimate objective of becoming like Christ.

As such, the right exploratory questions are those designed to determine if the various scriptures, and the gospel of which they are a part, work as intended in best accomplishing the intended objective.

This involves not only correctly figuring out the right questions to ask, but also correctly figuring out to whom to rightly ask the questions.

For some excellent pointers on asking the right questions, please see Moroni 10 and Alma 32.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
"Why should I care about being consistent?" --Mister Scratch (MD, '08)
_wenglund
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Re: has l-dsinc submitted the papyrus to egyptologists?

Post by _wenglund »

Buffalo,

I am not ignoring you. It is just that I only wish to answer for myself. I am not here to answer for quotes you rip from their context and misrepresent, nor am I here to answer for your selective view of the Book of Abraham. I hope you understand.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
Last edited by Gadianton on Tue May 24, 2011 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Why should I care about being consistent?" --Mister Scratch (MD, '08)
_wenglund
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Re: has l-dsinc submitted the papyrus to egyptologists?

Post by _wenglund »

Baker wrote:It was canonized before it became abundantly clear that it was a pure fabrication. Had it not been canonized pre-1968, what do you suppose would have happened?

I imagine that it would have received Kinderhook-Plates treatment from that point forward.


I hope you will forgive me for no longer responding to your dogmatic squeals, since there is no value that will come of it.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
"Why should I care about being consistent?" --Mister Scratch (MD, '08)
_Baker
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Re: has l-dsinc submitted the papyrus to egyptologists?

Post by _Baker »

wenglund wrote:
Baker wrote:It was canonized before it became abundantly clear that it was a pure fabrication. Had it not been canonized pre-1968, what do you suppose would have happened?

I imagine that it would have received Kinderhook-Plates treatment from that point forward.


I hope you will forgive me for no longer responding to your dogmatic squeals, since there is no value that will come of it.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


I will not only forgive you, but also thank you for it.
"I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. ... Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I." - Joseph Smith, 1844
_Buffalo
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Re: has l-dsinc submitted the papyrus to egyptologists?

Post by _Buffalo »

wenglund wrote:Buffalo,

I am not ignoring you. It is just that I only wish to answer for myself. I am not here to answer for quotes you rip from their context and misrepresent, nor am I here to answer for your selective view of the Book of Abraham. I hope you understand.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


I haven't misrepresented Will. Here is the entire context:

Code: Select all

Kevin,

I read where you are planning to return to the land of hot dogs, apple pie, and college football. It was not clear whether or not this is only a "visit" or if you are returning for good, as it were. If it is the latter, then the rest of this e-mail will be pertinent. Otherwise, you may press "Delete" now.

I am in the early stages of filming a “documentary” (tentatively entitled Sign of the Fifth Degree) that addresses the various issues surrounding the Book of Abraham, the Joseph Smith Papyri, and the Kirtland Egyptian Papers. I have already sought and obtained the consent of several people (from both sides of the question) to be interviewed for this documentary. Among those who will appear are: Brian Hauglid, John Gee, Kevin Barney, Samuel Brown, Blake Ostler, David Bokovoy, Christopher Smith, and other "rank and file" types who will be interviewed "before and after" I explain to them the details of the controversy surrounding the production of the Book of Abraham. I have already interviewed Kevin Barney and Chris Smith, and will be interviewing Sam Brown this weekend. I am also trying to work out the logistics of interviewing David Wright, John Tvedtnes, Luke Wilson, Jeff Lindsay, and Paul Osborne. Unfortunately, Brent Metcalfe is declining all requests for interviews, having apparently had a bad experience with "The Lost Book of Abraham" documentary done by (If I recall correctly) the IRR.

I intentionally placed the word “documentary” in quotes in the first sentence in order to underscore the fact that I do not intend to produce a typical documentary. Despite a somewhat shameful predilection for polemics (I think it’s a holdover from my competitive high school debate days) I am not interested in creating an apologetic or polemical piece. Quite to the contrary, I want to create a very personal, human-oriented work. Bear with me as I attempt to explain.

As you well know, a little over a year ago I was essentially unaware of the details of the controversy surrounding the Book of Abraham. Since then I have delved into the issues to the fullest extent possible, and now I understand what “the big deal” is all about. Frankly, I must admit that if one did not already have “faith” that the Book of Abraham was inspired scripture, I can now see why one would be inclined to conclude that it was a complete fabrication by Joseph Smith. It is clearly obvious that he couldn’t translate Egyptian, at least not as presently understood – the explanations of the facsimiles tell us that much. And it seems apparent that Joseph Smith and/or his scribes mistakenly believed that what we now know as the Book of Breathings was the text from which Joseph Smith translated the Book of Abraham.

In all honesty, if I were an outsider looking in at all of this, I find it difficult to believe that I could be persuaded that the production of the Book of Abraham was anything other than a clumsy imposture perpetrated by Joseph Smith upon his followers. But, of course, I’m not. I came into the discussion already possessing a conviction that the Book of Abraham was divinely-inspired scripture. And, despite what I consider to be my ability to soberly view the facts of the case, my faith seems to be, thus far, unshaken. On the other hand, I have come into contact with many people whose faith in the Book of Abraham (and, in many cases, their faith in the entire “restoration”) has been completely eroded by the “revelations” of the inexplicable problems surrounding the production of the book.

I find this extremely intriguing. And I want to explore it further. I want to speak to the principal proponents of the opposing arguments as well as those who are seeking to establish a basis for Book of Abraham apologetics. And then I want to speak to those who have been affected by the ongoing controversy – both people whose faith remains intact as well as those whose faith in these things has been lost.


I consider it to be essential to the objective of my production that the “critics” be permitted to present their arguments as fully and articulately as possible. Indeed, if you consent to be interviewed for this production, I will sign a contract with you that stipulates that your image and words cannot be used unless you give your authorization, and I will not ask you for that authorization until I have provided you with the “final cut” of your edited interviews. Again, I cannot emphasize enough that I am NOT setting out to make an apologetic or polemical piece. I realize that you may find that hard to believe considering how I have (often clumsily and, at least at first, lacking a full understanding of the facts) attempted to play the apologist on the FAIR/MAD message board. But the focus of my film will be on how different people have reacted to the issue in the years since the papyri have come to light, and since the KEP have been circulated. It will positively run counter to my purposes to misrepresent you and/or your arguments in any way. I want the viewer to understand exactly what the strengths of the critical arguments are – otherwise I don’t believe that one can fully appreciate what it means for one to retain “faith” in the Book of Abraham after coming into contact with this information. Nor can one fairly appreciate why someone could lose faith in Joseph Smith unless one sees that, in fact, there are apparently very good reasons to do so.

Of course, I am cognizant of the fact that you may very well be suspicious of my motives, given our previous exchanges with one another. And I don’t know how to convince you that I am quite sincere in what I have said regarding my intent. I can do no more than formally contract with you to not use your interview segments if you believe, in the end, that I mean to misrepresent you in any way. Again, I consider the clear and articulate presentation of the critical arguments as essential to the purpose of my work. I hope that you will consent to be interviewed for this project, and I will look forward to your reply.


Sincerely,

Will Schryver


P.S. I envision a "feature-length" film of 90 - 120 minutes. I can assure you that the production values of this film will be professional. My target completion date is December 2008, in time to have it premiere at the January 2009 LDS Film Festival. As you know, I am a software developer by trade. The art of filmmaking has been greatly democratized by the advent of digital video, and is largely an exercise conducted via computer. I have invested three years in serious study and practice. I have produced short films that have been screened in film festivals around the country, and I have produced a full-length documentary of a popular music festival held each year in southern Utah. I know what I'm doing, and I have purchased tens of thousands of dollars worth of professional equipment with which to do it, including a brand new Canon high definition camera. In addition, I will be assisted by my oldest daughter, who has just graduated from BYU's film program. I taught her to edit footage, and she has already received editing credits for two major studio productions -- Napoleon Dynamite (special features) and Nacho Libre.

















Both the Book of Moses and Book of Abraham make claims that the Canaanites were the ones affected by the priesthood ban, the decedents of Ham and therefore, according to Mormon doctrine, black as well. However, in the real world, the Canaanites were actual a Semitic people, and the Israelites as a people and a culture and religious movement emerged FROM the Canaanites. So if the Canaanites were cursed, so were the Israelites. If the Canaanites were black, so were the Israelites. Too bad Joseph Smith didn't know anything about the Canaanites.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Themis
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Re: has l-dsinc submitted the papyrus to egyptologists?

Post by _Themis »

wenglund wrote:
Themis wrote: Sounds like a good argument for one to beieve what ever they want.


That may be how the doltish mind views it. The rational mind would rightly think otherwise.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


Only the deluded mind as yours. It's not like most here do not already know what questions you think one should ask, and also why it is incorrect thinkming. Again maybe you could try and bring some substance to the discussion, but I won't hold my breath.
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_Themis
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Re: has l-dsinc submitted the papyrus to egyptologists?

Post by _Themis »

wenglund wrote:This significance is only realized by the individual members of the Church, when the Book of Abraham is rightly viewed and used and analyzed by them in accordance with the intent and purpose of thatr book of scripture--which has little to nothing to do with Egyptology.



Egyptology does however give us information to the validity of Joseph's claims about the Book of Abraham. I can understand why you want to continue to aviod the right questions that you know will not give you the desired results. Some of us can handle the truth. You can't and I am ok with that, and hope you are happy in this life.
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_Themis
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Re: has l-dsinc submitted the papyrus to egyptologists?

Post by _Themis »

wenglund wrote:Exploratory questions, on the other hand, are better suited to determining truth. -


Sure, questions like do the facimilies and papyri translate into what Joseph said they did. This is a question you aviod like the plague.

However, in terms of the restored gospel, determining the truth is secondary to, and a means to, accomplishing the ultimate objective of becoming like Christ.


Incorrrect. They are one and the same. If it is not true, then it cannot provide any ultimate objective, a truth that escapes you. One must also look to the truth of whether there is any Christ as well. Obtaining the attributes attrubuted to Jesus is something anyone can work on regardles of religion.


As such, the right exploratory questions are those designed to determine if the various scriptures, and the gospel of which they are a part, work as intended in best accomplishing the intended objective.

This involves not only correctly figuring out the right questions to ask, but also correctly figuring out to whom to rightly ask the questions.

For some excellent pointers on asking the right questions, please see Moroni 10 and Alma 32.



This is a good formula for self delusion, which is why many religions employ it. When you understand this you will be in a better position to see things as they really are. If you would like information as to why I can help, but I suspect you are not interested. Many are not and that is ok. Again I hope all happiness for you.
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