Banned to the Bone

[_Gadianton]

Do you think that Mormon apologia is so monolithic that there will be a [master] police agency?

That's a fair question, Yahoo Bot. No, I don't think it is this monolithic, yet. I think this is the goal of several apologists though. The Review, as well as FAIR are hell bent on deciding who can defend the church and how as much if not more than they are concerned with "countering" criticism.

I frequently criticize the behavior of LDS apologists and editors and authors for bad behavior. When I post on MAD board, I'm frequently torched by the likes of Pahoran and others. But there isn't a master police agency.

That's because the brethren have likely ordered the apologists to curtail their behavior on occasion. When the thinking has finally been done, I believe a master Mopologetic police station will arise, if things are ruled in their favor.

The difference between this board and the MAD board, in terms of behavior, is that the MAD posters throttle back their criticisms, rarely making intensely personal attacks on one's livelihood or reputation

Because of the moderation, as you say. But that's just the board, and it's largely because the junior-tier apologists have taken over and management is having a tough time keeping bringing them up to speed on Mopologetics in many respects. Do you think if the senior apologists were to come over as a group to that forum, that any of them would ever be moderated? It could only happen if a rogue moderator made a hasty call, but that moderator would likely be talked to if not shown the door.

Just look at the "criticisms" of Rodney Meldrum by FAIR. If cheap shots aren't allowed, it's only because the junior tier hasn't quite learned to take them properly yet.

[_harmony]

When I contemplate someone who is on the low road to hell, I think of Kevin Graham.

I have been displaced!

[_Hoops]

Evangelical message boards often have a hair trigger for banning non-evangelical opponents every bit as capricious as the one operating at MDDB now.

If I knew where this was I wouldn't have to soil this board with my presence.

[_EAllusion]

I did the same thing when I was an apologist and the lot of you loved me for it.

This is the real problem with any complaints about Kevin's behavior now. Kevin was an apologist for years and people seldom expressed concerns about his behavior, nor was he banned from the FAIR message board or MAD or ZLMB at the time. So long as his anger and aggression were directed at critics, few cared, and those few who cared generally kept their concerns low-key. The only exception I can think of was when he was kicked off of the FAIR e-list, and that happened largely because it was the one time that he directed his anger and aggression at fellow apologists. Even after that incident, he was allowed to write articles for the FAIR Web site.

I think Kevin was banned from an evangelical message board or two, but that's hardly noteworthy. Evangelical message boards often have a hair trigger for banning non-evangelical opponents every bit as capricious as the one operating at MDDB now. I was banned or disciplined at several evangelical Web sites for speaking too favorably of Mormonism back in the day.

Now, I don't disagree that Kevin's style can be aggressive, confrontational, angry, and/or hostile. It can be. It often is. I've had my share of disagreements with Kevin over the years, told him I never wanted to speak with him again, told him I wanted nothing to do with him, etc.

But his posting style isn't any worse than it was when he was an LDS apologist. If anything, he's mellowed considerably since leaving the LDS church. And it certainly isn't worse than the styles of any number of apologists that I could name whose behavior is never publicly questioned by their peers.

Until LDS apologists start policing and speaking out against the poor behavior coming out of their own ranks, no one is going to take them seriously when they complain about poor behavior in their opponents. Kevin Graham is a textbook case of someone who's style only draws complaints now because he plays for the other team. Gospel truth, folks.

This is all true. Especially the part I highlighted. With all due respect to Kevin, when the topic turned to Islam and his then far right politics, he came across as so livid as to be unhinged. I have no problem with DCP, a scholar of Islam, having an intense dislike of him over that. But Kevin has mellowed considerably. He still runs hot at times, but it'll only take up digging up a few ZLMB threads to show how much worse it could be. He was Pahoran-esque. And the apologists showed nothing but praise or restraint for that behavior when it was aimed at critics.

The only real exception I can think of for that general attitude was when Kevin would get on the subject of Islam. That's the only thing DCP seems willing to break his unwritten rule of not criticizing comrades in arms against would be critics of his faith for. He'd go after him for that. And with good cause.

That intense tribalism disturbs me. I'm not saying other groups or people in them don't behave this way, but the online Mormon apologist culture is so intense that I've only seen it rivaled by other tight-knit defenders of fringe movements - be it fundamentalist evangelicals or anti-vaxers. At the risk of hurting Don's feelings (sorry Don) when Mormon posters so fervently embraced him after rejoining the Church - some of the same people who were kinda jerks to him when not a Mormon - it came across as cultish to me. That's a love that feels creepy and plastic. Same with us or against us deal. I really don't like this behavior.

[_Yoda]

When I contemplate someone who is on the low road to hell, I think of Kevin Graham.

I have been displaced!

LOL!

[_MsJack]

If I knew where this was I wouldn't have to soil this board with my presence.

Try CARM.

The Utah Lighthouse Message Board was also notoriously bad (and the whole reason ZLMB was created in the first place).

[_Yoda]

He can't stay on topic -- he has to attack one's character at every turn

And you haven't been guilty of similar tactics? Pot, meet kettle.

First of all, let me say that I acknowledge the fact that you have mellowed. I also have gained respect for you, as Ms. Jack has, because I have seen you take other apologists to task for poor behavior. You are one of the few apologists who has lectured Pahoran, Will, and even Juliann! That, my friend, is impressive! ;-)

That being said, when you bemoan the fact that posters here have personally attacked you, it is very disingenuous of you to fein ignorance as to why. A tactic which you have used with both Harmony and myself was extremely hurtful to us, as members, in particular. If you found yourself in a position where you were losing an argument, you would lash out, stating that if we were not in agreement with your stance, we must not be good Church members, worthy to go to the temple, good parents, etc. In other words, you were very good at effectively "pushing personal buttons" in a way that would, inevitably, bring out the worst in people.

I am not saying that your behavior was an excuse for my bad behavior toward you. It most certainly was not. I should not have called you the things I called you in the past, and I have apologized for that.

However, it is dishonest of you to claim complete innocence, and claim that you were randomly attacked by board members, when that was really not the case.

[_Yahoo Bot]

That intense tribalism disturbs me. I'm not saying other groups or people in them don't behave this way, but the online Mormon apologist culture is so intense that I've only seen it rivaled by other tight-knit defenders of fringe movements - be it fundamentalist evangelicals or anti-vaxers.

Yet another false belief in monolithic behavior.

Defenders come in all stripes. You just read the ones you hate.

I condemn Kevin for all his bannings.

Oh, wait, I've been banned as well from a couple of lists and THIS board as well. My offense here? Using a red font. Now THERE's a justification for banning. With all the condemnation here for MAD's moderation, I get banned for red font?? My goodness, free speech has its limits, doesn't it. Can't yell fire in a theater and can't use red font on an anti-Mormon board.

[_Yoda]

With all the condemnation here for MAD's moderation, I get banned for red font??

You were not banned. You were suspended. If you were banned, you wouldn't be posting here now. Also, we actually had the decency to explain to you WHY you were suspended...something that the MAD Mods rarely do.

And, it wasn't using red font that got you suspended. It was trying to pass off your posts as being from a Mod. You would have gotten suspended at MAD for doing the same thing. Actually, you would have likely been flat-out banned.

[_Yahoo Bot]

And you haven't been guilty of similar tactics? Pot, meet kettle.

This thread isn't about me. You're all weepy about my tactics here when, indeed, I'm one of the very few so-called apologists willing to wade in here and point out the intense foolishness of some of the posters here.

No, this thread is about Kevin Graham, the hater of all things Islam, the arch right-wing hater of all things good and civil, one who would trammel the civil rights of the oppressed.

The declarer of lies.

The blasphemer, the mocker, the evil one. The fool.

How's that for hyperbole.