Book Review: "The 5,000 Year Leap" by Cleon Skousen

[_gramps]

Droopy wrote:

To an ever greater and greater extent, gramps, many Americans could give a rat's left lymph node about what Europeans do or think. They've already almost given away the freedoms and democratic forms they still retain, and are in no position to lecture anybody, collectively speaking, on matter political or economic.

Well, Droopy, to an ever greater and greater extent, many Americans would feel secure in voting for someone like Michelle Bachmann, or that numbskull from Texas, so I am not sure your critique holds much water really. But, I am the last one to think that any country is much better or worse than any other country. They are all quite screwed up, in my opinion.

But, back to the starting point, Droopy. Tell me about Madison's role in the passing of Virginia's Bill 82. Let's see what you understand about Madison.

[_Droopy]

Some quick and substantive introductory reading here:

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Report ... -Discourse

A much more balanced, and far less abstruse treatment of Madison's relationship to religious liberty (than we're going to get from gramps) can be found here:

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Report ... us+Liberty

The first thing one is going to notice, just at the outset, is that gramps is being very careful to equivocate with language and carefully cherry pick isolated statements - while ignoring others - that can be massaged to get to where he wants to be.

No wonder history is such a touchy and volatile subject for the Left.

[_Chap]

... gramps is being very careful to equivocate with language and carefully cherry pick isolated statements - while ignoring others - ....

I have no horse in this race, but this does call for a little substantiation, does it not?

[_Kevin Graham]

I called it!

Heritage, as usual!

A bastion of objective commentary, to be sure.

ROFL!

A few months ago I cut and pasted an article from Heritage and Droopy didn't realize I had. He didn't like what it said so he went on a rant accusing me of leftist mentality, etc etc etc...

So you need to be careful about Heritage. Sometimes they produce communistic manifestos.

[_EAllusion]

But, back to the starting point, Droopy. Tell me about Madison's role in the passing of Virginia's Bill 82. Let's see what you understand about Madison.

That he's merely telling you to read the Federalist Papers, as if that should be one's source for establishment clause jurisprudence, over and over tells you what you need to know.

No doubt, he's currently perusing sources as we speak to reply to this. He's in a bit of a pickle, as he's not going to get an answer he likes without relying on the liars for Jesus brigade which people are already onto in this thread. I'm curious to see what he does. Madison was committed to government neutrality in matters of religion, favored strict separation, and on a personal level was generally suspicious of religious institutions accumulating wealth and power to boot.

Best case scenario is that he completely ignores you and offers the Rhenquist argument replied to here. More likely, the insult to substance ratio will just continue.

[_gramps]

Some quick and substantive introductory reading here:

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Report ... -Discourse

A much more balanced, and far less abstruse treatment of Madison's relationship to religious liberty (than we're going to get from gramps) can be found here:

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Report ... us+Liberty

The first thing one is going to notice, just at the outset, is that gramps is being very careful to equivocate with language and carefully cherry pick isolated statements - while ignoring others - that can be massaged to get to where he wants to be.

No wonder history is such a touchy and volatile subject for the Left.

LMAO.

So, it is true, Droopy, you really haven't read anything on it, have you?

You just ran to Heritage for some "substantive" history.

Nice work, Droops. ;)

[_gramps]

But, back to the starting point, Droopy. Tell me about Madison's role in the passing of Virginia's Bill 82. Let's see what you understand about Madison.

That he's merely telling you to read the Federalist Papers, as if that should be one's source for establishment clause jurisprudence, over and over tells you what you need to know.

No doubt, he's currently perusing sources as we speak to reply to this. He's in a bit of a pickle, as he's not going to get an answer he likes without relying on the liars for Jesus brigade which people are already onto in this thread. I'm curious to see what he does. Madison was committed to government neutrality in matters of religion, favored strict separation, and on a personal level was generally suspicious of religious institutions accumulating wealth and power to boot.

Best case scenario is that he completely ignores you and offers the Rhenquist argument replied to here. More likely, the insult to substance ratio will just continue.

I completely agree with you. Can't you just feel Droopy's frantic searching as we write these responses?

[_EAllusion]

Some quick and substantive introductory reading here:

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Report ... us+Liberty

I just read this link. Outside of the strawman characterization of what "liberals" think, it isn't wrong. Madison was a fierce advocate of religious liberty. He felt people should be free to think and worship as they choose. He was personally religious, though in a sense akin to modern UU's. He didn't think people should quarantine their religious life from the public. But no one here is saying he did. This link doesn't even contradict anything said above about his separationist views. It even points out in the very article you linked that he was a separationist.

Did you read your link before quickly passing it along? I can only imagine what the other one says.

[_Tarski]

A few months ago I cut and pasted an article from Heritage and Droopy didn't realize I had. He didn't like what it said so he went on a rant accusing me of leftist mentality, etc etc etc...

So you need to be careful about Heritage. Sometimes they produce communistic manifestos.

LOL
Damn that was funny!

[_Droopy]

Madison was committed to government neutrality in matters of religion, favored strict separation,

Thanks for agreeing with my core argument, Delusion. We've finally seen eye to eye on something, although, I do suspect your engaging in deep equivocation and ahistorical fudging with the term "separation," bweteen the manner in which Madison understood it, and as Earl Warren, Cass Sunstein, or Barry Lynn and the ACLU understands it.