Drilldown #1: TBMs, details re your spiritual experience

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

All my spiritual experiences were either manufactured or embellished. Sometimes a faithful guy wants to share a story, too.

That said, my mother asked me when I was two what I thought of a departed great-grandmother. I said she was nice, or something to that effect and my mother was convinced I had met her in the pre-existence.

[_Chap]

Is there some scientific study that gives a satisfying explanation regarding foreknowledge of an event.

In order for Liz's experience to count as an example of foreknowledge, she would have had to make a note of her prediction at the time she had the experience reported, and given it to a trustworthy third party to keep.

Absent that or something equivalent, we have no way of telling whether her present account of foreknowledge is not an artefact of what is called by some 'fabulation' that has occurred without her awareness after the highly stressful time during which she tells us it took place. That is not the same as saying that she is lying or stupid. However, a report today of a memory is not the same as proof that the experience remembered actually took place as described.

Which is more likely, we must ask: that contrary to all indications in the material world the dead do actually survive in some way, or that human memory is fallible under stress and a high state of emotional arousal, especially for those with a predisposing belief system?

I have a clear and circumstantial memory of conducting a successful experiment in telepathy involving the mental transmission of quite long sentences when I was a child of ten. I am however inclined to think it did not actually happen that way at all, and that I am recollecting a dream as if it had been reality. If that suspicion is true, I am neither a fool nor a liar. And nor is Liz.

[_stemelbow]

When I consider these types of questions I realize the sum of my experiences (the ones I'd consider spiritual) formed my base. There are a couple that seem to stand out (But become as I’ve learned difficult to put into words), but for the most part they all blend together. Kind of like how Liz had her experience with her grandma she took that to mean there is life after death, it seems. I have done the same with my experiences. They all just kind of build up.

As it pertains to Mormonism in particular it has just been a long steady flow of spiritual feeling, peace and impression. As a teenager I took life quite seriously. Not because of my LDS background but because of the other things in my life that I probably won't get much into. Here are some bits: It was, vaguely put, people dying young, others running away, teenage prostitution, drugs, violence and other such things. Life was rarely "who you taking to prom?" for me. In the wake of such a life, my dad invited some lost soul to stay with us (we had many different types living with us over the years, people who my dad deemed as needing second chances and a boost in life). He was as creepy as any person I had been around. So I just plain stayed away from the house as much as possible or I'd hide out in my bedroom--at this time I acquired my own bedroom because all my sisters had moved out. For the first week of this guys’ stay I read the Book of Mormon. I devoured it. It was fascinating to me. I then went on and read the D&C, the Old Testament and then the new. I felt quite impressed with the purposeful life of Joseph Smith and his associates, which interest extended largely into Paul. You see my life lacked much purpose. I was supposed to be readying myself for a career and the real world, but I was very uninterested in accomplishment and doing for myself. I snagged onto the notion of how purposeful life was for those of the early Church, both the modern and the ancient. They were eager, resolute, and focused. That’s what I wanted. I suppose that means the beginning of it all for me was a desire to live a purposeful life and the example I had was the story of Joseph Smith. I became bent towards the religion since. The impressions for me, though, when I read the scriptures were very powerful. I remember them to this day. While I’ve received impressions and feelings when reading other books, never has the clarity been so powerful, nor the assurance, nor the hope, nor the focus. For me, many of those days gave to me not only a hope for something more than the difficulty and dread of mortality, but a strong impression that there is hope, there is something far more.

Anyway, those are the experiences that got me on my spiritual road. I don’t know if they are, even in my mind, absolutely clear spiritual manifestation. I mean they are spiritual manifestations in my mind, but I wouldn’t say these alone are the basis for my Mormonism.

Anyway, hopefully this gets some more going. I realize my little story above does not compare to the remarkable nature of Liz’s and for that I apologize I can’t be of more help.

[_consiglieri]

Since Liz has paved the way, let me join in with a strange experience I had in Japan back in the summer of 1980. This was the one incident in my life where I have heard a voice speak to me in relation to a supernatural experience.

I and my companion were tracting one afternoon at a train station. I was at the bottom of the long stairway leading up and over the train tracks to the station. A massive river of Japanese people were going up and down the the stairs. I was in the middle, sticking out like a big gaijin rock in the middle of the river of humanity.

I was asking people right and left if they wanted to hear our tokubetsu na messeji. On the rare occasion that somebody did, we would walk them over to a bench in the open bus stop and teach them a quick first discussion.

The sun was beating down. It was hot and humid in Oji that day.

I heard a voice in my ear say, "Get him." The voice was very clear and spoke in English. I had been turned to my right contacting somebody, and yet I somehow knew the person I was supposed to "get" had just walked by on my left.

He had passed me, and there were plenty of people to keep contacting where I was, so I disregarded it. The voice came again, more insistent, "Get him." At this point, I looked around and this fellow was halfway up the wide crowded stairway. I declined, thinking it would look pretty silly for a big white American to go bounding up the steps after somebody.

The voice came a third time, "Get him!" This time, there seemed to almost be an "or else" stuck on the end. I figured the time for hesitating was over. I began running up the stairs as the guy turned the corner at the top to begin walking down the long bridge over the tracks to the station.

I went up the stairs taking them two at a time, rounded the corner at the top myself, and booked after him. (In retrospect, it is funny I could even keep track of what guy this was inasmuch as there were literally hundreds of people going in and out at all times.)

I ran up to him from behind, and just as I was about to tap him on the shoulder and ask if he wanted to hear our special message, doubt tapped on my shoulder. I became concerned whether this fellow would agree to listen, and then was scared he would not. I mean, the odds were definitely against his listening--probably about one in a hundred on average.

But in spite of the doubts, I went ahead and tapped his shoulder. (Sheer inertia would have made it tough to stop just then, anyway.) He turned around, surprised, and I introduced myself in an out-of-breath way.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_Tamp]

Is there some scientific study that gives a satisfying explanation regarding foreknowledge of an event. You can PM me out of respect for Liz if you have something interesting for me to look at. I just don't see how you can explain away Liz's experience, but I'm open to looking at something legitimate.

Thanks,
Tamp

I PMed you, Tamp.

Thanks Schmo, I got it and replied

[_mentalgymnast]

Anyway, those are the experiences that got me on my spiritual road. I don’t know if they are, even in my mind, absolutely clear spiritual manifestation. I mean they are spiritual manifestations in my mind, but I wouldn’t say these alone are the basis for my Mormonism.

Hi stemelbow, for the benefit of those that are sincerely interested in the basis and/or validity of what are referred to as spiritual experiences, would you clarify whether you would term your spiritual experiences to consist primarily of emotional feelings/response, or something qualitatively different? If consiglieri would like to chime in here too, great.

I'm of the opinion, personally, that spiritual experiences consist of something qualitatively unique in which emotion may or may not play a part, but often is not the primary factor/component.

Thanks,
MG

[_Some Schmo]

Since Liz has paved the way, let me join in with a strange experience I had in Japan back in the summer of 1980. This was the one incident in my life where I have heard a voice speak to me in relation to a supernatural experience.

I and my companion were tracting one afternoon at a train station. I was at the bottom of the long stairway leading up and over the train tracks to the station. A massive river of Japanese people were going up and down the the stairs. I was in the middle, sticking out like a big gaijin rock in the middle of the river of humanity.

I was asking people right and left if they wanted to hear our tokubetsu na messeji. On the rare occasion that somebody did, we would walk them over to a bench in the open bus stop and teach them a quick first discussion.

The sun was beating down. It was hot and humid in Oji that day.

I heard a voice in my ear say, "Get him." The voice was very clear and spoke in English. I had been turned to my right contacting somebody, and yet I somehow knew the person I was supposed to "get" had just walked by on my left.

He had passed me, and there were plenty of people to keep contacting where I was, so I disregarded it. The voice came again, more insistent, "Get him." At this point, I looked around and this fellow was halfway up the wide crowded stairway. I declined, thinking it would look pretty silly for a big white American to go bounding up the steps after somebody.

The voice came a third time, "Get him!" This time, there seemed to almost be an "or else" stuck on the end. I figured the time for hesitating was over. I began running up the stairs as the guy turned the corner at the top to begin walking down the long bridge over the tracks to the station.

I went up the stairs taking them two at a time, rounded the corner at the top myself, and booked after him. (In retrospect, it is funny I could even keep track of what guy this was inasmuch as there were literally hundreds of people going in and out at all times.)

I ran up to him from behind, and just as I was about to tap him on the shoulder and ask if he wanted to hear our special message, doubt tapped on my shoulder. I became concerned whether this fellow would agree to listen, and then was scared he would not. I mean, the odds were definitely against his listening--probably about one in a hundred on average.

But in spite of the doubts, I went ahead and tapped his shoulder. (Sheer inertia would have made it tough to stop just then, anyway.) He turned around, surprised, and I introduced myself in an out-of-breath way.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Well, then what happened? You seem to be missing the best part here. Was he receptive? Did he get baptized? Is this a serial and you're going to tell us next week?

Don't leave me hangin', man!

[_stemelbow]

Hi stemelbow, for the benefit of those that are sincerely interested in the basis and/or validity of what are referred to as spiritual experiences, would you clarify whether you would term your spiritual experiences to consist primarily of emotional feelings/response, or something qualitatively different? If consiglieri would like to chime in here too, great.

I'm of the opinion, personally, that spiritual experiences consist of something qualitatively unique in which emotion may or may not play a part, but often is not the primary factor/component.

Thanks,
MG

I can agree with you. I think emotion seems to be an effect, quite often, of the manifestation. As it is, though, i can't deny that for me, in regards to the beginnings for me as I described, emotion played a huge part.

[_consiglieri]

Well, then what happened? You seem to be missing the best part here. Was he receptive? Did he get baptized? Is this a serial and you're going to tell us next week?

Don't leave me hangin', man!

Sorry about that. I was just getting to the conclusion when it occurred to me that maybe it didn't make any difference what actually happened after I tapped on this guy's shoulder insofar as the reality of the experience to me.

I am interested in hearing what you and others have to say about this. (I'm not trying to be cloak and dagger here . . . okay, just a little bit.)

Would/should this experience be accepted by others (or even myself) as any more or less "truthful" based upon what happened afterward?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_Some Schmo]

Sorry about that. I was just getting to the conclusion when it occurred to me that maybe it didn't make any difference what actually happened after I tapped on this guy's shoulder insofar as the reality of the experience to me.

I am interested in hearing what you and others have to say about this. (I'm not trying to be cloak and dagger here . . . okay, just a little bit.)

Would/should this experience be accepted by others (or even myself) as any more or less "truthful" based upon what happened afterward?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Well, at first I got the feeling you didn't include it because the guy wasn't interested (or whatever) which would certainly soften the punch of this story, but I didn't want to assume that without asking.

I mean, I sometimes hear things. My daughter was kind of freaking out last week or so because she thought she saw twin girls out of the corner of her eye in an older building down town. She tells me she doesn't believe in ghosts and such, but this experience still rattled her. So I sat down with her and told her that I have these little tricks of perception quite often. Sometimes it's visual, but most often with me, I hear voices or foreign noises that I can't explain other than to say my brain misfired somehow. I told her that this kind of thing has been happening every once in a while my entire life, and there was really no point in letting it scare you, even though it seems really real. Basically, if we're frightened by that stuff, we're letting our own brain scare us (of course, that's pretty much the basis of all fear, but why go into that with her?)

Anyway, I guess when I read your story, I was expecting there to be more punch due to something coming of this "chance" encounter, because up to that point, all I was thinking was, "Well sure, that happens." Had he turned around and said to you something like, "I was just thinking about someone who looked like you" or some other serendipitous comment, it would have been much more impressive (well, to me, anyway).

Oh, and I don't doubt what you wrote happened to you at all, no matter what you tell me the outcome was (although I reserve judgment on any additions to the story).