A Stak Attack, 2 missionaries, and suffering in God's plan

[_Darth J]

Interesting question Stem inadvertently raised. Let’s say some poor woman got gang raped, and ten years later, due to untreated psychological trauma, she kills herself.

If God takes mercy on this poor woman, what can he conceivably do in a Mormon context, to fix the wrongs done to her, and make it right?

We don't know, Stak. But don't take my word for it. Take the word of a living apostle of Jesus Christ:

http://LDS.org/ensign/1987/10/suicide-s ... t?lang=eng

See, the problem is that I don't know without Mormonism, and according to an apostle, I don't know with Mormonism, either. So Mormonism has no particular answer, which causes one to wonder why I am any better off with Mormonism than without it.

[_MCB]

In the Mormon context, she a) deserved it because she was not dressed modestly enough b) she chose that life c) she was suffering for the sins of her ancestors d) she chose to wallow in her suffering e) she never found a man who could pull her through the curtain-- maybe because she refused to forgive her rapist.

If God takes mercy on this poor woman, what can he conceivably do in a Mormon context, to fix the wrongs done to her, and make it right?

In a Mormon context, God is incapable of setting it right.

[_stemelbow]

None of these things are unique to Mormonism.

Your #1 is not unique to Mormonism. E.g., http://www.anthonyflood.com/griffincrea ... fchaos.htm

Sure, creation ex materia is something that is not unique to Mormonism, but the creation and how it came about is unique--that is the story of it is unique.

Your #2 is #1 phrased in different terms.

No its not. God is physical and works within the realm of eternal laws. to create via materials doesn't necessitate that God works within the realm of eternal laws, nor does it sugest God is necessarily physical.

Your #3 is not unique to Mormonism. There are people besides Mormons who believe in a pre-mortal existence. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-existence

Well, I'm not spelling out for you how the Mormon concept of pre-existence is unique. And by that it presents somethign quite unique on this problem.

Also, merely asserting #3 does not explain how a theistic God can be omnibenevolent. It does not explain the justice in holding us accountable for choices we do not remember making. It also fails to address why we were not given a choice to live in a world devoid of meaningless suffering, nor why we were not given a choice to reject the idea of an earthly life altogether and just remain with God.

My stating the unique Mormon concept of pre-mortality is not in some way descriptive of how it addresses the issue.

Your #4 is not unique to Mormonism, and is also a misstatement of Mormon doctrine. You are conflating "salvation" and "eternal life," which are not the same thing in Mormonism.

Now you're just quibbling about semantics. My use of eternal life is meant to suggest life that goes on eternally.

Your #5 is not unique to Mormonism at all. It is simply the basic idea of Christianity.

Not really. There are many a Christian who assumes God's atonment was far more limited. I don't know any who suggest Christ suffered the sufferings of all mankind.

Your #6 is merely a convoluted way of stating the free-will defense to the problem of evil. The free-will defense is not even close to being unique to Mormonism. It also fails to explain why God has to allow someone's free agency to do evil to me, yet by doing so God interferes with my free agency to choose not to have evil done to me.

There is plenty to discuss on this topic. I don't think you are seeing what I'm saying at all.

[_stemelbow]

You do realize that a the concept of a limited, bound God has even more significant problems regarding the Problem of Evil, right?

I'd have to question the quantitative judgment here. But I do not suggest that by offering a different perspective in which to discuss that means the problem is effectively eliminated.

[_Buffalo]

Presumably the devil's plan would have eliminated things like child rape. I'll take his idea over the nonsensical Elohim scheme.

My what large faith in the devil you have, Buffalo

It wouldn't have. he was proposin' a way that was not possible, I'd say.

Keep in mind this is all hypothetical. Satan is as fictional as god. But, even assuming they're all real, god has proven himself unworthy of my trust. How could Satan be worse?

[_stemelbow]

Interesting question Stem inadvertently raised. Let’s say some poor woman got gang raped, and ten years later, due to untreated psychological trauma, she kills herself.

If God takes mercy on this poor woman, what can he conceivably do in a Mormon context, to fix the wrongs done to her, and make it right?

Unless we are able to see what life after this life is we simply can't know. We can only guess. As Joseph once reported the wonder of the Telestial would be so grand to us we'd quickly kill ourselves to get there. And, in the end it'd be up to her to decide if God more than makes up for her suffering. it wouldn't be up to you.

I don't mean to downplay the suffering people go through in this life. Its real. Its difficult, destructive, confusing stuff. But that's not to say we can dogmatically proclaim there can be no God because we suffer, nor that there is no eternal purpose in it.

[_stemelbow]

Interesting question Stem inadvertently raised. Let’s say some poor woman got gang raped, and ten years later, due to untreated psychological trauma, she kills herself.

If God takes mercy on this poor woman, what can he conceivably do in a Mormon context, to fix the wrongs done to her, and make it right?

Unless we are able to see what life after this life is we simply can't know. We can only guess. As Joseph once reported the wonder of the Telestial would be so grand to us we'd quickly kill ourselves to get there. And, in the end it'd be up to her to decide if God more than makes up for her suffering. it wouldn't be up to you.

I don't mean to downplay the suffering people go through in this life. Its real. Its difficult, destructive, confusing stuff. But that's not to say we can dogmatically proclaim there can be no God because we suffer, nor that there is no eternal purpose in it.

[_Darth J]

None of these things are unique to Mormonism.

Your #1 is not unique to Mormonism. E.g., http://www.anthonyflood.com/griffincrea ... fchaos.htm

Sure, creation ex materia is something that is not unique to Mormonism, but the creation and how it came about is unique--that is the story of it is unique.

Mormonism has no "unique story" of how creation happened. Mormonism merely declares that it did happen, and we are not privy to the details.

Your #2 is #1 phrased in different terms.

No its not. God is physical and works within the realm of eternal laws. to create via materials doesn't necessitate that God works within the realm of eternal laws, nor does it sugest God is necessarily physical.

God working within the realm of eternal laws is what creation ex materia implies. The idea that God has a physical body creates problems with God being limited in time and space---meaning that you are creating more problems than you are solving here. But, as in the example to which I linked, the belief that God has a physical body is unnecessary to believe that God is limited by eternal laws, and is irrelevant to the problem of evil.

Your #3 is not unique to Mormonism. There are people besides Mormons who believe in a pre-mortal existence. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-existence

Well, I'm not spelling out for you how the Mormon concept of pre-existence is unique. And by that it presents somethign quite unique on this problem.

I am aware that you intend to rest on argument by assertion.

Also, merely asserting #3 does not explain how a theistic God can be omnibenevolent. It does not explain the justice in holding us accountable for choices we do not remember making. It also fails to address why we were not given a choice to live in a world devoid of meaningless suffering, nor why we were not given a choice to reject the idea of an earthly life altogether and just remain with God.

My stating the unique Mormon concept of pre-mortality is not in some way descriptive of how it addresses the issue.

QFT

Your #4 is not unique to Mormonism, and is also a misstatement of Mormon doctrine. You are conflating "salvation" and "eternal life," which are not the same thing in Mormonism.

Now you're just quibbling about semantics. My use of eternal life is meant to suggest life that goes on eternally.

The subject is what is unique to Mormonism, not things that you are making up as you go. Mormonism does quibble about semantics when it comes to distinguishing between "salvation" and "eternal life." "God will make everything better in the next life" is not a theodicy that is unique to Mormonism, either.

Your #5 is not unique to Mormonism at all. It is simply the basic idea of Christianity.

Not really. There are many a Christian who assumes God's atonment was far more limited. I don't know any who suggest Christ suffered the sufferings of all mankind.

Perhaps you would like to tell us about some of your favorite Christian denominations that do not believe Christ suffered for all mankind.

Your #6 is merely a convoluted way of stating the free-will defense to the problem of evil. The free-will defense is not even close to being unique to Mormonism. It also fails to explain why God has to allow someone's free agency to do evil to me, yet by doing so God interferes with my free agency to choose not to have evil done to me.

There is plenty to discuss on this topic. I don't think you are seeing what I'm saying at all.

There is plenty to discuss on this topic, and it has been discussed for hundreds of years, and Mormonism has not brought anything new or unique or insightful to the table. The only thing you have attempted to back up as distinctive to Mormonism is its mythos of the pre-mortal life, but you have announced that you do not intend to explain what is unique about this, but will merely rely on naked assertion.

[_Buffalo]

In the Mormon context, she a) deserved it because she was not dressed modestly enough b) she chose that life c) she was suffering for the sins of her ancestors d) she chose to wallow in her suffering e) she never found a man who could pull her through the curtain-- maybe because she refused to forgive her rapist.

If God takes mercy on this poor woman, what can he conceivably do in a Mormon context, to fix the wrongs done to her, and make it right?

In a Mormon context, God is incapable of setting it right.

Don't forget, if she lived through the rape, that means she didn't fight hard enough and per LDS doctrine she is partially culpable in her own rape.

[_Darth J]

Unless we are able to see what life after this life is we simply can't know. We can only guess.

We can do that without Mormonism. You are conceding that Mormonism has no unique insight, despite its claim to have prophets and apostles to tell us eternal truths about the nature of God and the purpose of life.

As Joseph once reported the wonder of the Telestial would be so grand to us we'd quickly kill ourselves to get there. And, in the end it'd be up to her to decide if God more than makes up for her suffering. it wouldn't be up to you.

"God will make everything better in the next life" is not a theodicy that is unique to Mormonism

I don't mean to downplay the suffering people go through in this life. Its real. Its difficult, destructive, confusing stuff. But that's not to say we can dogmatically proclaim there can be no God because we suffer, nor that there is no eternal purpose in it.

I think everyone reading this thread is aware by now that you don't understand what "theism" means.