The Dead

[_Blixa]

I should take the time sometime soon to share with you my life story – I call myself Jobette.

I'm really sorry I didn't come up with that name myself!

I don't know if you've ever heard Jonathan Goldstein's book Ladies and Gentlemen, the Bible!. Goldstein is an author and radio personality. You can hear his CBC show as a podcast, WireTap and he is also a contributing editor of Chicago's This American Life. This book is a series of humorous re-tellings of well known Bible stories; Goldstein is a secular jew, but his work, though funny is never truly irreverent and often produces an interesting philosophical perspective on the fables. Anyway, as I currently struggle with the Book of Job, I've often considered writing my own re-gendered version. But now you've taken the best name for the character! Grrrrr...

It will take me some time to read through your post carefully and see if I have any useful responses. I'm interested to see how people make sense of religion in their lives, particularly those aspects that I have the hardest time reconciling. But keep in mind that serious criticism is a form of respect: it's only when an idea is worth arguing about or a person worth arguing with, that interesting discussions can take place. That's not to say that all forms of "criticism" are equal: dismissive, reactive and point-scoring replies are not actual criticism in my book.

Edited to add: Nice to see the horsies back. Maybe it will spur me to make some more custom avatars: see here for infamous Draw Your Favorite MDB Poster thread...

[_Jersey Girl]

keith

It doesn't really help.

I think that it does little to comfort the families who have lost children to horrible accidents, mothers who have lost children to starvation, etc. I, being a somewhat amoral being by my own estimation, would help a child if I had the power to help and saw that child starving to death or being murdered. I have a hard time conceiving of a "moral", omnipotent being that wouldn't do the same.

You know, I understand how you think that, but I have to acknowledge that great things can come out of tragedy, suffering and pain. In fact, I think that what moves and changes people the most, is the result of those.

[_jo1952]

I asked to try to get some sense of where you're coming from, what you think and how you evaluate issues.

Hi Jersey Girl,

Sounds good to me. As the new kid on the block, I'm doing the same thing with everyone here on Mormon Discussions!

Best regards,

jo

[_keithb]

keith


You know, I understand how you think that, but I have to acknowledge that great things can come out of tragedy, suffering and pain. In fact, I think that what moves and changes people the most, is the result of those.

I can see your point. However, I would also point out that this is in a human reference frame, where we have limited morality, power, and knowledge. I don't see how this translates to a divine reference frame, where we assume that the gods have unlimited amounts of all of these and should thus have a sufficient understanding of suffering to move to action without it being a motivator.

Second, I am not sure how much comfort this statement would be to those experiencing the suffering. It's fine to say that a member of your family got cancer to help you learn compassion, but I'm not sure that does much for the person with cancer. At least, if I were a god, I would hope to find another way to teach someone the value of compassion without resorting to affliction.

[_Chap]

keith


You know, I understand how you think that, but I have to acknowledge that great things can come out of tragedy, suffering and pain. In fact, I think that what moves and changes people the most, is the result of those.

Just in case any deity is reading this, I would like to make it clear that I am already really, really very compassionate.

I care. Lots. Honest, I have already got the point. My cousin had quite a bad cold recently, and that maxed out my compassion meter. I am at full capacity, compassion wise, very moved, and changed as much as I can be without plastic surgery. You can save the 'growth through suffering' therapy for someone who really needs it. Don't bother with little me.

[_Jersey Girl]

keith


You know, I understand how you think that, but I have to acknowledge that great things can come out of tragedy, suffering and pain. In fact, I think that what moves and changes people the most, is the result of those.

I can see your point. However, I would also point out that this is in a human reference frame, where we have limited morality, power, and knowledge. I don't see how this translates to a divine reference frame, where we assume that the gods have unlimited amounts of all of these and should thus have a sufficient understanding of suffering to move to action without it being a motivator.

Second, I am not sure how much comfort this statement would be to those experiencing the suffering. It's fine to say that a member of your family got cancer to help you learn compassion, but I'm not sure that does much for the person with cancer. At least, if I were a god, I would hope to find another way to teach someone the value of compassion without resorting to affliction.

Do you mind if I reply to this in private messages? I can do it in just a few minutes if you're okay with it.

[_Jersey Girl]

keith


You know, I understand how you think that, but I have to acknowledge that great things can come out of tragedy, suffering and pain. In fact, I think that what moves and changes people the most, is the result of those.

Just in case any deity is reading this, I would like to make it clear that I am already really, really very compassionate.

I care. Lots. Honest, I have already got the point. My cousin had quite a bad cold recently, and that maxed out my compassion meter. I am at full capacity, compassion wise, very moved, and changed as much as I can be without plastic surgery. You can save the 'growth through suffering' therapy for someone who really needs it. Don't bother with little me.

I wasn't referencing the development of compassion.

[Guest]

You know, I understand how you think that, but I have to acknowledge that great things can come out of tragedy, suffering and pain. In fact, I think that what moves and changes people the most, is the result of those.

Just in case any deity is reading this, I would like to make it clear that I am already really, really very compassionate.

I care. Lots. Honest, I have already got the point. My cousin had quite a bad cold recently, and that maxed out my compassion meter. I am at full capacity, compassion wise, very moved, and changed as much as I can be without plastic surgery. You can save the 'growth through suffering' therapy for someone who really needs it. Don't bother with little me.

I wasn't referencing the development of compassion.

In that case, hypothetical board-reading deity, please understand that I am one of those ungrateful and immature people who would feel unable to benefit in any way whatsoever from tragedy, suffering and pain. All I do under those circumstances is weep or scream, and hope that it will soon stop, or that it will all prove to be a bad dream. Yes, I really am that unfitted for spiritual growth of any kind. Please give me up as a bad job. Feel free to pass by on the other side.

Oh, and all my family and friends are just as unpromising in that regard. We are a bad lot, all of us.

[_Jersey Girl]

Chap

In that case, hypothetical board-reading deity, please understand that I am one of those ungrateful and immature people who would feel unable to benefit in any way whatsoever from tragedy, suffering and pain. All I do under those circumstances is weep or scream, and hope that it will soon stop, or that it will all prove to be a bad dream. Yes, I really am that unfitted for spiritual growth of any kind. Please give me up as a bad job. Feel free to pass by on the other side.

Oh, and all my family and friends are just as unpromising in that regard. We are a bad lot, all of us.

Why do you presume that my words had anything to do with the development of greater compassion or spiritual growth when I said nothing of the kind? I have no clue why you insist on reading into my posts what I didn't say.

[_Chap]

Why do you presume that my words had anything to do with the development of greater compassion or spiritual growth when I said nothing of the kind? I have no clue why you insist on reading into my posts what I didn't say.

This bit, I suppose, given the fact that we are in a thread where a believer has labored at length to convince us that innocent suffering can all be part of her deity's loving purposes of promoting the welfare of what she conceives to be our immortal souls:

... great things can come out of tragedy, suffering and pain. In fact, I think that what moves and changes people the most, is the result of those.

If by that you mean that the great things that come out of 'tragedy, suffering and pain' are on the whole greatly undesirable things, and that the changes the produce in people are mainly for the worse, I am entirely with you.

Otherwise, not.