CES employee resigns

[_Yahoo Bot]

I was certainly expecting something different when I listened to their podcast. Why me is right; they've got real issues. Looks like he's trying to keep their marriage together and she wants to hang out with somebody other than her husband, and they are using the church as some sort of foil.

They're crazy to expose their personal lives like this. I feel sorry for them. He's a nice guy.

[_Aristotle Smith]

I was certainly expecting something different when I listened to their podcast. Why me is right; they've got real issues. Looks like he's trying to keep their marriage together and she wants to hang out with somebody other than her husband, and they are using the church as some sort of foil.

They're crazy to expose their personal lives like this. I feel sorry for them. He's a nice guy.

I've yet to listen to the podcast (perhaps it's time for another Taco Bell run). If what you are saying is accurate, then I do feel sorry for them. The real problem in situations like this is that it's never really clear what came first, who is using what to what end, and it can become a vicious cycle leading to divorce. Let's hope things work out well for them.

[_Runtu]

I've yet to listen to the podcast (perhaps it's time for another Taco Bell run). If what you are saying is accurate, then I do feel sorry for them. The real problem in situations like this is that it's never really clear what came first, who is using what to what end, and it can become a vicious cycle leading to divorce. Let's hope things work out well for them.

I haven't listened to it, either, but I've learned through sad experience that airing relationship issues in a public venue is a very bad idea.

[_dblagent007]

I was certainly expecting something different when I listened to their podcast. Why me is right; they've got real issues. Looks like he's trying to keep their marriage together and she wants to hang out with somebody other than her husband, and they are using the church as some sort of foil.

Believing Mormons have an uncanny ability to look right past the reasons people give for leaving the church and zero in on some sin, offense, etc. (e.g., the McLay's marriage had problems and the Church was just a foil). I mean why else would anyone leave a semi-cultish religion founded by a guy bedding young teenagers and other people's wives?

[Guest]

I was certainly expecting something different when I listened to their podcast. Why me is right; they've got real issues. Looks like he's trying to keep their marriage together and she wants to hang out with somebody other than her husband, and they are using the church as some sort of foil.

Believing Mormons have an uncanny ability to look right past the reasons people give for leaving the church and zero in on some sin, offense, etc. (e.g., the McLay's marriage had problems and the Church was just a foil). I mean why else would anyone leave a semi-cultish religion founded by a guy bedding young teenagers and other people's wives?

No. I heard him briefly discuss that material. But, in terms of time spent talking, so much is spent on (1) his unseemly grasping through the CES ranks, and (2) her interest in another man. I was hoping he'd put some flesh on the bones with his doctrinal issues (he was so thinly read that he couldn't answer Dehlin's questions about the number of teenage wives he thought Joseph Smith had), but he quickly veered away from his disagreements with polygamy and polyandry and moved directly into the church's stance on homosexuality.

And then, in response to your point, I was rather amazed that Dehlin confronted her several times with the question as to whether she was committing adultery. I listened, perhaps not closely enough, but I didn't hear a denial. I wouldn't have had the guts to ask the question in the first place, but once asked, perhaps there should have been a response.

In any event, my original post on this subject was certainly not to minimize their doctrinal issues (they strike me as wildly naïve, but perhaps I am too put off by their Wasatch front twang and their incessant use of "tuh" instead of "to" in speech) but to point out that they have foolishly exposed their private sexual lives.

[_dblagent007]

I was certainly expecting something different when I listened to their podcast. Why me is right; they've got real issues. Looks like he's trying to keep their marriage together and she wants to hang out with somebody other than her husband, and they are using the church as some sort of foil.

They're crazy to expose their personal lives like this. I feel sorry for them. He's a nice guy.

I've yet to listen to the podcast (perhaps it's time for another Taco Bell run). If what you are saying is accurate, then I do feel sorry for them. The real problem in situations like this is that it's never really clear what came first, who is using what to what end, and it can become a vicious cycle leading to divorce. Let's hope things work out well for them.

Bot is reading a lot into what was said. The wife is a blogger and she realized that she really enjoyed the friendship of a fellow, male, gay blogger. This caused her to realize that many people find happiness in ways that are verboten by the Church (e.g., her gay friends were really happy, she was happy working outside the home, etc.). This was the beginning of her loss of faith.

The husband said at one point that he felt threatened by her friendship with this gay couple. She said that she felt he tried to squash the friendship by pulling the "I have the priesthood authority card." Now, however, he fully accepts the friendship of this gay couple with both himself and his wife.

I didn't think it was really much of an airing of relationship issues. It was their expression of what got them questioning. He started questioning because of doctrinal issues and she started questioning when she realized there was a whole other world out there that wasn't as scary and evil as the church made it out to be.

[_Yahoo Bot]

It certainly is more than that. The husband said their marriage was on the edge of collapse over this in March 2010, which coincided with some training he was receiving to run an EFY operation in Florida.

It then appears that he relented, agreed to pay for her flight to join this man for non-business reasons (apparently she didn't make the flight) and he informed the EFY folks he couldn't accept the assignment.

Again, these details should not have made it into their podcast. Her relationship with other men, and discussing it openly, just opens them up for the very kind of criticism you offer about Mormon reaction to apostasy.

This is a defecting CES employee. I want to hear his doctrinal issues. but he can only mention one wife of Joseph Smith with whom he takes exception? Curious.

[_dblagent007]

No. I heard him briefly discuss that material. But, in terms of time spent talking, so much is spent on (1) his unseemly grasping through the CES ranks, and (2) her interest in another man. I was hoping he'd put some flesh on the bones with his doctrinal issues (he was so thinly read that he couldn't answer Dehlin's questions about the number of teenage wives he thought Joseph Smith had), but he quickly veered away from his disagreements with polygamy and polyandry and moved directly into the church's stance on homosexuality.

There is a lot of discussion of CES, but I think that is justified since so few Mormon Stories listeners know much about it. Her friendship with her fellow blogger was emphasized to show how she realized the Church was not fulfilling to her and that people can find happiness outside the confines of the Church's walls. I guess all you took away from it was that she was no longer fully devoted to her husband, which I think was unjustified.

As for the doctrinal issues, I too recoiled in horror when he failed to produce from memory the exact number of Joseph Smith's teenage wives. Well, until I realized how ridiculous it is to require anyone to have such a trivial and easily referenced detail committed to memory. Besides, Dehlin only asked for a bullet point list of the issues.

And then, in response to your point, I was rather amazed that Dehlin confronted her several times with the question as to whether she was committing adultery. I listened, perhaps not closely enough, but I didn't hear a denial. I wouldn't have had to guts to ask the question in the first place, but once asked, perhaps there should have been a response.

I recall that she denied it. Besides, from what I understand about homosexuals, the reason they are homosexual is ... that they aren't sexually attracted to women, you know, like the wife.

In any event, my original post on this subject was certainly not to minimize their doctrinal issues (they strike me as wildly naïve, but perhaps I am too put off by their Wasatch front twang and their incessant use of "tuh" instead of "to" in speech) but to point out that they have foolishly exposed their private sexual lives.

They didn't even talk about their private sexual lives. She merely discussed how her friendship with this homosexual man precipitated her loss of faith.

[_Runtu]

They didn't even talk about their private sexual lives. She merely discussed how her friendship with this homosexual man precipitated her loss of faith.

Some people I know immediately latch onto the personal problems of the "apostate" as the "real" reason they left the church. It's a curious phenomenon.

[_dblagent007]

It certainly is more than that. The husband said their marriage was on the edge of collapse over this in March 2010, which coincided with some training he was receiving to run an EFY operation in Florida.

It then appears that he relented, agreed to pay for her flight to join this man for non-business reasons (apparently she didn't make the flight) and he informed the EFY folks he couldn't accept the assignment.

I don't think that's accurate. I will admit that I would probably find it kind of weird if my wife suddenly becomes best friends with a gay man, especially if I was still TBM like John was. However, after thinking about it a bit more, the fact that the other man is gay and in a relationship with a partner would make me feel okay about it.

Again, these details should not have made it into their podcast. Her relationship with other men, and discussing it openly, just opens them up for the very kind of criticism you offer about Mormon reaction to apostasy.

Perhaps, but I don't think they should have glossed over this. It was integral for her reason for losing her faith. She can't tell that story without telling the truth. The Church likes to gloss over the dirty details when telling its story, but I'm glad this couple didn't.

This is a defecting CES employee. I want to hear his doctrinal issues. but he can only mention one wife of Joseph Smith with whom he takes exception? Curious.

He was only asked for a bullet point list. He hit on most of the main ones that people cite: Book of Abraham, Polygamy, changes to the temple ceremony, Kinderhook plates, changes to the revelations, etc.