I genuinely like Marlin Jensen, so was disappointed to read him quoted as saying the church "has made no effort to hide or obscure its history," admitting only that some aspects "haven't been emphasized."
That is downright dishonest. Of course, the Church has made a huge effort to hide and obscure its history; or at least those portions of its history that portray it in a less than flattering light.
Terryl Givens has it right when he speaks of "a church history that has been selectively rendered through the Church Education System and Sunday school manuals. . . . The problem is not so much the discovery of particular details that are deal breakers for the faithful; the problem is a loss of faith and trust in an institution that was less than forthcoming to begin with."
I do not see a ready reconciliation between Jensen's view and that of Givens.
But I do think Givens is right.
All the Best!
--Consiglieri
My respect for Jensen was increasing until this.
I find it easier to see him as falling victim to an official three line whip and having to state something so clearly in opposition to what he has said before. I don't believe he is a flip flopper by nature.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
Admitting to the TBMs that there are problems is A Bad Thing, given many TBMs' penchant for leaving the church once they find out. So, the TBMs need a "rescue" plan that doesn't involve them actually knowing that there is a real, legitimate problem.
Most TBM's in my experience are familiar with the objections. This is probably why, as Marlin K Jensen stated in a recent SLTrib article, there is no tidal wave of apostasy. The reality remains that most if not all who leave the Church claiming doctrinal or historical objections are merely using such as a rationalization or justification for some other problem.
So in reality, the church doesn't need surveys like this. They already know why people leave.
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die." - Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775
MrStakhanovite wrote:I'd like to be on your resuce list LDST
I'm on my way.
H.
I will need pictures of this "rescue." TIA
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden ~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
Members leave because the Church over promises and under delivers.
Investigators are promised the truth and they get...well...much less than that.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
What do you care about science, bcspace? Heck, we could discuss Facsimile No. 3 strictly on a scientific basis and find absolutely no connections with Joseph Smith's pretended translations of the same.
When it comes to science, you aren't credible. I'm surprised you can even log on to a computer and operate the buttons. You should have been born 500 years ago.
Just press the Esc button, bcpace. Close your eyes and spell "SHULEM". It's right there in the writing of Facsimile No. 3 just as the artist penned it and Joe Smith confirmed it to mankind yet again in the last days. It's a miracle!
All I know is science is always changing and thus, cannot be trusted. I prayed about this poll, and received confirmation that it was correct, even the most correct poll ever.
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die." - Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775
bcspace wrote:The reality remains that most if not all who leave the Church claiming doctrinal or historical objections are merely using such as a rationalization or justification for some other problem.
And you base this on some kind of scientific survey, perhaps? Or is it just your opinion of what reality is?
Let me tell you a secret, bcspace: Sin is fun and glorious! I love not paying tithing to the stupid church. I love masturbating freely without guilt when ever I want. I like being me. I love being a sinner and am going to stay that way. Sin is beautiful. Religion is ugly.
The Church is not true. The Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 are a complete lie and are utterly false. I bear you that witness. Don't ever say I didn't tell you so.
why me wrote:Good spin. What is unfortunate is that even if the LDS church came out and addressed the controversial issues, critics would still give it a negative spin. Amazing.
I'm tempted to put you on ignore because you rarely ever say anything intelligent. But I'll give you a chance.
Tell me why Joseph Smith revealed the name Shulem in the Facsimile and why the church authorities have not addressed this issue. In case you aren't aware, the name Shulem is NOT in the writing at all but Joseph Smith claimed it was. Please explain in your own words. You only need to include a few sentences and do make them intelligent or otherwise I'm putting you on ignore. And if you fail to respond, your sorry ass goes on ignore and Facsimile No. 3 is yet again proven to be a fraud.
Operation Rescue! Here comes Why Me -- saving the Book of Abraham for Joe Smith the translator!
LDSToronto wrote:If the inactive says no, they are taken off the Rescue list, but they are not free and clear. Eventually, they will end up back on the Rescue list, and the cycle will continue.
Wow, this rescue garbage sounds like a huge pain in the butt for everyone involved. I am so glad I canceled my account last year so I don't have to deal with this kind of harassment.
"And yet another little spot is smoothed out of the echo chamber wall..." Bond
Being part of the church's "rescue" plan is sort of like being a firefighter, except the opposite. They find people who escaped, and are now happy, and they try to drag them out of their comfortable home and throw them back into the burning building.
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die." - Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775