Can we assume people who think homosexuality is a choice

[_EAllusion]

So orientations don't break down straight, gay, bi. There's actually a more complicated range of orientations where sexual attraction with the same sex is a possibility even if it isn't an equal possibility. And, for what it is worth, an increasingly solid body of evidence suggests women are significantly more likely than men to fall in some bisexual orientation.

A lot more people have bisexual tendencies than you might think. I agree that the idea of "choosing" to like females is utterly foreign to me, but I guarantee you there are at least a few anti-gay types here who do pick among their attractions to some sort of extent. They won't admit it, because no admission can be allowed on this front, but statistics suggest they are there.

[_Darth J]

Have you noticed any unusual hair growth on your palms?

I would want more definitive symptoms, because hair growth on your palms could just as easily mean that you are a werewolf.

[_Buffalo]

Is this your way of saying you think it's a choice? :)

No, it's my way of saying all this pretentious glad-handing and back slapping is silly. Is there some issue being discussed? Or is this just a pep rally for the enlightened?

You seem upset.

[_Yoda]

I think that what is confusing to many who really don't understand homosexuality is that there are homosexual people who choose to marry a member of the opposite sex simply for acceptance of traditional culture.

It happens both in and out of the Mormon Church. Although we primarily discuss how discriminatory the LDS Church is here, society, as a whole, is still discriminatory to a huge degree when it comes to gay couples. It is better, but certainly not viewed as the "norm".

Look at Paul O, for example. He spent the better part of 30 years in a heterosexual marriage. Based on this, BC would categorize Paul as bi-sexual.

I don't see that as necessarily the case. Yes, it is true that he obviously had sex with his wife. He has children by her.

However, as he has pointed out, his primary attraction has always been to men.

The marriage ultimately failed. I am not sure if Paul's homosexuality was the primary reason it failed, but I am sure it played a huge part.

Should they have stayed together, in the hope that in the next life, Paul would finally have a true sexual desire for his wife? I don't know. I can't really be the judge of that.

I think it is possible for a gay man and a straight woman to marry, and strive to make the marriage work through a mutual love that does not include a true sexual desire. However, I think that there is a primal part of the marriage relationship that both parties are denying themselves of when they do this. If neither one of them cheats, the wife never truly knows what it's like to be with someone who really desires her sexually. The husband never has the opportunity to be with someone who he desires sexually. To me, this is sad.

[_Quasimodo]

Have you noticed any unusual hair growth on your palms?

I would want more definitive symptoms, because hair growth on your palms could just as easily mean that you are a werewolf.

I'm not an expert in this, but I think if your palms are only hairy once a month, you are a werewolf. If they are hairy all the time you have been... well, you know.

[_Daniel2]

I think that what is confusing to many who really don't understand homosexuality is that there are homosexual people who choose to marry a member of the opposite sex simply for acceptance of traditional culture.

It happens both in and out of the Mormon Church. Although we primarily discuss how discriminatory the LDS Church is here, society, as a whole, is still discriminatory to a huge degree when it comes to gay couples. It is better, but certainly not viewed as the "norm".

Look at Paul O, for example. He spent the better part of 30 years in a heterosexual marriage. Based on this, BC would categorize Paul as bi-sexual.

I don't see that as necessarily the case. Yes, it is true that he obviously had sex with his wife. He has children by her.

However, as he has pointed out, his primary attraction has always been to men.

The marriage ultimately failed. I am not sure if Paul's homosexuality was the primary reason it failed, but I am sure it played a huge part.

Should they have stayed together, in the hope that in the next life, Paul would finally have a true sexual desire for his wife? I don't know. I can't really be the judge of that.

I think it is possible for a gay man and a straight woman to marry, and strive to make the marriage work through a mutual love that does not include a true sexual desire. However, I think that there is a primal part of the marriage relationship that both parties are denying themselves of when they do this. If neither one of them cheats, the wife never truly knows what it's like to be with someone who really desires her sexually. The husband never has the opportunity to be with someone who he desires sexually. To me, this is sad.

Liz,

Speaking as another homosexual who was in the same boat as Paul, yours is an excellent post. Thank you.

Daniel2

[_Yoda]

I think that what is confusing to many who really don't understand homosexuality is that there are homosexual people who choose to marry a member of the opposite sex simply for acceptance of traditional culture.

It happens both in and out of the Mormon Church. Although we primarily discuss how discriminatory the LDS Church is here, society, as a whole, is still discriminatory to a huge degree when it comes to gay couples. It is better, but certainly not viewed as the "norm".

Look at Paul O, for example. He spent the better part of 30 years in a heterosexual marriage. Based on this, BC would categorize Paul as bi-sexual.

I don't see that as necessarily the case. Yes, it is true that he obviously had sex with his wife. He has children by her.

However, as he has pointed out, his primary attraction has always been to men.

The marriage ultimately failed. I am not sure if Paul's homosexuality was the primary reason it failed, but I am sure it played a huge part.

Should they have stayed together, in the hope that in the next life, Paul would finally have a true sexual desire for his wife? I don't know. I can't really be the judge of that.

I think it is possible for a gay man and a straight woman to marry, and strive to make the marriage work through a mutual love that does not include a true sexual desire. However, I think that there is a primal part of the marriage relationship that both parties are denying themselves of when they do this. If neither one of them cheats, the wife never truly knows what it's like to be with someone who really desires her sexually. The husband never has the opportunity to be with someone who he desires sexually. To me, this is sad.

Liz,

Speaking as another homosexual who was in the same boat as Paul, yours is an excellent post. Thank you.

Daniel2

Thanks, Daniel!

If I may ask...are you still married?

[_Daniel2]

Thanks, Daniel!

If I may ask...are you still married?

Hi, Liz,

Thanks for the response (and PM). No, I'm no longer married. We were together for eight years, and have three children (now ages 13-8). We separated in 2005--an action I initiated; she was opposed to ending the marriage. While my sexual orientation ultimately was a significant consideration of my decision to leave, it was really only the straw that finally proke the proverbial camel's back--our marriage and relationship had been unhealthy (to put it mildly) from almost the beginning (though my former wife tells a different story). Though the reasearch that I've read suggests that the vast majority of mixed-orientation marriages fail, I understand not all such marriages end in divorce. For those couples able to stay on amicable terms, I heartily support any couples choose to stay together in consideration of their children, so long as there is open communication and make cognizant, emotionally-healthy choices that consider both the wife's and husband's psychological needs.

Divorce is really, really tough on kids---even when it's necessary (in fact, it's perhaps even HARDER on kids when it's necessary--but it's difficulty on kids doesn't make it's necessity any less... well... necessary). I hate the fact that my kids have suffered so much. Unfortunately, in my case, I had to make the difficult choice of that separating would be better in the long term for all concerned (primarily my kids). I accept that others may be best served by staying together. The primary concern any parent should consider, in my opinion, is what is best for one's kids, while being aware of what is psychologically possible for each parent.

Daniel2

[_Shulem]

It was really hard living the lie for so many years -- getting married, raising kids, acting straight in the church and at work. I wasn't a real person. I wasn't who I really was.

My wife and I really loved each other as two people who care for two people but the sexual attraction on my part was more forced than anything. Don't get me wrong, my wife was a lovely lady with a great body but that doesn't matter when a man is gay.

To make a long story short, my wife divorced me because she needed to get fulfillment in life and I couldn't give it to her. We parted as dear friends and she was very kind to me. We both dropped out of the church shortly after the divorce.

A little over half way through our marriage I confessed and told her that I was gay. She worked with it. We did everything we could to make things good. Got counseling too. But in the end, she needed to move on and let me go. Thank God she did! Now we both lead fulfilling lives and I've never been so happy! In fact, my happiness in being who I am is beyond anything I thought possible. She has since remarried to a man that loves to love her as a woman.

Being gay is not a choice. The only choice is acting on it. I don't care if people disagree with this. I have a personal testimony of it and am living it. It's not a faith based thing. It's sure knowledge. It's like the veil has dropped and you're looking straight at the face of Almighty God. There is no doubt and in this knowledge the mere talk of faith or teachings of prophets is child's play. I'm talking about pure knowledge -- I'm talking about knowing based on seeing with the heart transcending into the realms of deep love.

Paul O

[_Quasimodo]

Being gay is not a choice. The only choice is acting on it. I don't care if people disagree with this. I have a personal testimony of it and am living it. It's not a faith based thing. It's sure knowledge. It's like the veil has dropped and you're looking straight at the face of Almighty God. There is no doubt and in this knowledge the mere talk of faith or teachings of prophets is child's play. I'm talking about pure knowledge -- I'm talking about knowing based on seeing with the heart transcending into the realms of deep love.

Paul O

Thanks Paul! Really great to hear your doing so well. I had never heard the details. It's wonderful that you can be this open.