Tobin ...... Here's a reasonable response by Law...
On being asked about abortions in Nauvoo.
'Yes. There was some talk about Joseph getting no issue from all the women he had intercourse with. Dr. Foster spoke to me about the fact. But I don't remember what was told about abortion. If I heard things of the kind, I didn't believe in them at that time.'
I'm sure. How about this quote: "He claimed to be a god, whereas he was only a servant of the Devil, and as such met his fate." referring to Joseph Smith and taken from William Law's diary.
TBMs, if any read this, this guy is up to NO good. Just ignore this little tempest in a teapot till it blows over.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:TBMs, if any read this, this guy is up to NO good. Just ignore this little tempest in a teapot till it blows over.
Tobin,
What are you so afraid of?
If the information that William Law provided in contemporary letters and statements is so obviously false or biased, why not encourage TBMs to read it and discern this for themselves?
Are TBMs such naïve sheep that they need a guardian such as yourself to warn them away from perceived threats to their tender testimonies?
Finally, do you realize that many faithful Mormons take offense at the TBM label?
(Don't ask me why, but they do.)
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."
DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
Okay, Tobin, here's another reasonable response... from his letters
On page 108 you speak of "swapping wives," and state that you have it from one who knows. Now let me say to you that I never heard of it till I read it in your book. Your informant must have been deceived or willfully lied to you. Joseph Smith never proposed anything of the kind to me or to my wife; both he and Emma knew our sentiments in relation to spiritual wives and polygamy; knew that we were immoveably [sic] opposed to polygamy in any and every form; that we were so subsequent events proved. The story may have grown out of the fact that Joseph offered to furnish his wife, Emma, with a substitute for him, by way of compensation for his neglect of her, on condition that she would forever stop her opposition to polygamy and permit him to enjoy his young wives in peace and keep some of them in her house and to be well treated
He could have easily fuelled the fire, but chose not to. He obvioulsy feels Joseph was a 'fallen prophet' and that he abused his position for gain on many levels. But he doesn't appear to want to lie to prove a point.
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
Tobin wrote:TBMs, if any read this, this guy is up to NO good. Just ignore this little tempest in a teapot till it blows over.
Tobin,
What are you so afraid of?
If the information that William Law provided in contemporary letters and statements is so obviously false or biased, why not encourage TBMs to read it and discern this for themselves?
Are TBMs such naïve sheep that they need a guardian such as yourself to warn them away from perceived threats to their tender testimonies?
Finally, do you realize that many faithful Mormons take offense at the TBM label?
(Don't ask me why, but they do.)
Oh, I'm not personally afraid of anything William Law is going to say.
I do have a "concern" that TBMs (and I'm sure they've seen the term or "Good LDS") are not equipped for this kind of stuff. Many don't even know that Joseph Smith was a polygamist and that is where the problem arises. I have asked a few LDS friends to visit this site so they become more familiar with the issues. However, I would definitely wave them away from this rose bush. Most have a very literal view of Mormonism and that is also a "concern" when dealing with issues like this. They have an expectation of perfection in Joseph Smith that is simply not there and this can have a deleterious effect on their faith.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin, this stuff is going to come out one way or another. I'm finding that with many of my Facebook friends, particularly with Mitt Romney running for Republican nominee for President. Mormonism is having a high profile internationally (I'm from the UK). Those who stay despite these kind of issues, will be stronger, not weaker, and their faith will be based on a fuller version of church history rather than a whitewash...
Best to get these things out in the open, don't you think..
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
Miss Taken wrote:Okay, Tobin, here's another reasonable response... from his letters
On page 108 you speak of "swapping wives," and state that you have it from one who knows. Now let me say to you that I never heard of it till I read it in your book. Your informant must have been deceived or willfully lied to you. Joseph Smith never proposed anything of the kind to me or to my wife; both he and Emma knew our sentiments in relation to spiritual wives and polygamy; knew that we were immoveably [sic] opposed to polygamy in any and every form; that we were so subsequent events proved. The story may have grown out of the fact that Joseph offered to furnish his wife, Emma, with a substitute for him, by way of compensation for his neglect of her, on condition that she would forever stop her opposition to polygamy and permit him to enjoy his young wives in peace and keep some of them in her house and to be well treated
He could have easily fuelled the fire, but chose not to. He obvioulsy feels Joseph was a 'fallen prophet' and that he abused his position for gain on many levels. But he doesn't appear to want to lie to prove a point.
Yes, I'm sure he's a sweetheart Miss Taken, but I'm not buying it. I have seen the bitter remarks he made and read what he was up to.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Miss Taken wrote:Tobin, this stuff is going to come out one way or another. I'm finding that with many of my Facebook friends, particularly with Mitt Romney running for Republican nominee for President. Mormonism is having a high profile internationally (I'm from the UK). Those who stay despite these kind of issues, will be stronger, not weaker, and their faith will be based on a fuller version of church history rather than a whitewash...
Best to get these things out in the open, don't you think..
A few members can handle stuff like this. However, I don't think a lot of the membership in the Mormon church are that aware of the issues. And the church educational material is abysmal. Those are the ones that are not ready for William Law.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Miss Taken wrote:Tobin, this stuff is going to come out one way or another. I'm finding that with many of my Facebook friends, particularly with Mitt Romney running for Republican nominee for President. Mormonism is having a high profile internationally (I'm from the UK). Those who stay despite these kind of issues, will be stronger, not weaker, and their faith will be based on a fuller version of church history rather than a whitewash...
Best to get these things out in the open, don't you think..
A few members can handle stuff like this. However, I don't think a lot of the membership in the Mormon church are that aware of the issues. And the church educational material is abysmal. Those are the ones that are not ready for William Law.
This must be one of the many truths of Mormonism that are not helpful, then.
Does this mean that you have advanced to the level within the LDS Church that you can serve as an arbiter of truth?
Dalin Oaks and BKP would probably be proud that you have heeded their counsel.
DCP and bcspace will probably be dubious of your willingness to replace and/or supplant them in this venue as one who determines useful truth.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."
DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
Tobin wrote:A few members can handle stuff like this. However, I don't think a lot of the membership in the Mormon church are that aware of the issues. And the church educational material is abysmal. Those are the ones that are not ready for William Law.
This must be one of the many truths of Mormonism that are not helpful, then.
Does this mean that you have advanced to the level within the LDS Church that you can serve as an arbiter of truth?
Dalin Oaks and BKP would probably be proud that you have heeded their counsel.
DCP and bcspace will probably be dubious of your willingness to replace and/or supplant them in this venue as one who determines useful truth.
That assumes I have control over what Mormons read or do not read. I do not have control of that. However, I think it is important that if they read this discussion (or are linked to it) that they know that there are members here that urge them to avoid the topic and not trust the source William Law.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:... I think it is important that if they read this discussion (or are linked to it) that they know that there are members here that urge them to avoid the topic and not trust the source William Law.
And what source can they trust?
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.