Mormonism 101 Has Always Been At War With Eastasia

[_lulu]

But that still doesn't answer the question, are YOU saying that the "official publication is doctrine" press release is inspired?

I don't know.

If you don't know, you don't know.

[_Kishkumen]

As lulu indicated, that all depends on how you define "core beliefs." I always thought eternal progression, ie, progressing to godhood in the highest degree of glory in the CK, was a core belief. But early members thought that the practice of plural marriage was a core belief, too.

Yes, the definition of core beliefs changes like just about everything else.

[_Chap]

What am I "fooled" about?

You've posted here for a long time. In earlier days you seemed more objective, but of late, you've become very negative. I actually once admired your posts, but only God knows where you've gone in recent times. Maybe Darth "inspired you" to take this more negative course? lol.

He's a ring leader for sure. He comes here to build up a following by trying to impress posters about how "smart" he is. He can quote from Mormon publications and show contradictions, so he is God!

In reality, he's the ex-Mormon version of all that we feared in Mormonism - with dogma piled up to the tip of his head. If he stayed in the Church, he'd probably make McConkie look like a liberal.

He'd happily be a part of The New Inquisition.

... and I am "fooled" about what?

(by the way, I'm not very interested in whether any poster on this board seems to you to be 'objective', 'negative' or in your surmises about the hidden motivations behind their posts.)

[_Tarski]

He doesn't believe in anything "supernatural", and preaches his "gospel of rationalism" .

So? You say this like it is obviously a bad thing?

A couple years ago you were going around recommending Shermer's books and promoting other skeptical/rational ideas. Were you evil or insincere?
In my opinion you were, metaphorically speaking of course,...sober.
I am patiently waiting for you to once again excomminicate yourself from the gospel of credulity.
Of course, I guess we will first have to wait until your acceptance of Mormonism reaches it's biannual peak.

[_malkie]

Tobin, I think that one of the big problems is not that the leaders of the church are human, fallible, etc.

It's that, after all we have been told about how they will never lead us astray (not in the lord's program), how can they be so wrong for so long.

And, for BC or anyone else who wants to talk about "official doctrine", I'm with Spurven Ten Sing on this: it doesn't matter what the label is - if the highest leaders in the church (especially the ones whose business it is, due to the fact that they are paid for doing it) teach something, then unless it is immediately, publicly, and definitively corrected by the others, it is by default an accepted part of the teaching of the church.

"Official doctrine" is a red herring.

[_Tobin]

Tobin, I think that one of the big problems is not that the leaders of the church are human, fallible, etc.
It's that, after all we have been told about how they will never lead us astray (not in the lord's program), how can they be so wrong for so long.

And who told you that? They did, not the Lord. It is time we dispense with unsound doctrines like this and rely on God. The reason the gifts of the spirit, such as prophecy, seeing, revelating, healing, and so on are infrequent or rare in the Church is because Mormons have replaced true faith in God with faith in men which is foolish as you can see. After all, how many silly and ridiculous things has the Church fallen into over the past two centuries because of this?

And I don't mean speaking to God like many Mormons say it. I often hear that people pray and feel like they should do something that is disastrous. I mean members should learn the truth like Christ taught it - using knowledge, reason, and "true" inspiration from God. After all, the truth should be reasonable and consistent with what we know and fulfilling. Often times Mormons are guilty of believing ridiculous things for no other reason then they felt it was true (or more commonly, their leaders said so).

[_malkie]

Tobin, I think that one of the big problems is not that the leaders of the church are human, fallible, etc.
It's that, after all we have been told about how they will never lead us astray (not in the lord's program), how can they be so wrong for so long.

And who told you that? They did, not the Lord. It is time we dispense with unsound doctrines like this and rely on God. The reason the gifts of the spirit, such as prophecy, seeing, revelating, healing, and so on are infrequent or rare in the Church is because Mormons have replaced true faith in God with faith in men which is foolish as you can see. After all, how many silly and ridiculous things has the Church fallen into over the past two centuries because of this?

And I don't mean speaking to God like many Mormons say it. I often hear that people pray and feel like they should do something that is disastrous. I mean members should learn the truth like Christ taught it - using knowledge, reason, and "true" inspiration from God. After all, the truth should be reasonable and consistent with what we know and fulfilling. Often times Mormons are guilty of believing ridiculous things for no other reason then they felt it was true (or more commonly, their leaders said so).

I'm not sure that that's a reasonable alternative - not if you expect an organization with any degree of unity. (And I recognise that you are not a big fan of "the organization", so I'm not arguing with you on this point - more stating it for the purpose of setting up for what follows.)

So, if you cannot depend on the leaders who tell you that they are the authorised representatives of god on the earth today, and you have members who are guilty of what you say, is there any point in the church at all? Why don't we all just go our own way and (if we feel so inclined) talk to god when necessary?

[_Tobin]

I'm not sure that that's a reasonable alternative - not if you expect an organization with any degree of unity. (And I recognise that you are not a big fan of "the organization", so I'm not arguing with you on this point - more stating it for the purpose of setting up for what follows.)

So, if you cannot depend on the leaders who tell you that they are the authorised representatives of god on the earth today, and you have members who are guilty of what you say, is there any point in the church at all? Why don't we all just go our own way and (if we feel so inclined) talk to god when necessary?

It's actually a better alternative. Leaders should seek to do what God wants. A Mormon Church transformed into a loving, accepting, welcoming place where anyone (and I mean anyone) can attend without judgement and where they can express their faith in God (in whatever form it takes) or seek aid (spiritual and temporal) is all the Church should be about. An organization so transformed and dedicated to the truth (scientific, philosophical, societal, and so on) is sorely needed in our day. Instead we have this monstorous judgemental organization falling into unnecessary things like Prop 8 and other fights. The Church should be above such things and be about doing what God wants.

[_Kishkumen]

Sounds good to me!

[_malkie]

I'm not sure that that's a reasonable alternative - not if you expect an organization with any degree of unity. (And I recognise that you are not a big fan of "the organization", so I'm not arguing with you on this point - more stating it for the purpose of setting up for what follows.)

So, if you cannot depend on the leaders who tell you that they are the authorised representatives of god on the earth today, and you have members who are guilty of what you say, is there any point in the church at all? Why don't we all just go our own way and (if we feel so inclined) talk to god when necessary?

It's actually a better alternative. Leaders should seek to do what God wants. A Mormon Church transformed into a loving, accepting, welcoming place where anyone (and I mean anyone) can attend without judgement and where they can express their faith in God (in whatever form it takes) or seek aid (spiritual and temporal) is all the Church should be about. An organization so transformed and dedicated to the truth (scientific, philosophical, societal, and so on) is sorely needed in our day. Instead we have this monstorous judgemental organization falling into unnecessary things like Prop 8 and other fights. The Church should be above such things and be about doing what God wants.

Well, Tobin, when you put it that way, I find it hard to disagree. However, being a pessimist, and being in my 60s, I don't expect to live to see such an organization - either as a transformed LDS church, or as a new institution.

Just wondering out loud - would it look something like the Salvation Army? Or, at least, more like the SallyAnn than like the current LDS church?