Apostasy's A Bummer

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_Runtu
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Re: Apostasy's A Bummer

Post by _Runtu »

Droopy wrote:All I wanted was an elucidation of your meaning here. Is Don one of these who believes his problems with the Church are legitimate, and does he see places where the Church is not true (true here, but not there), or has he matured beyond this point?


Kevin didn't say Don had problems with the church. He said Don recognizes that we who have left have legitimate issues, even if he doesn't share our concerns. I would think it takes some maturity to recognize that people with whom you disagree might actually have legitimate reasons for their beliefs.
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_Droopy
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Re: Apostasy's A Bummer

Post by _Droopy »

Kevin didn't say Don had problems with the church.


He implied that he and others with similar experience do.

He said Don recognizes that we who have left have legitimate issues, even if he doesn't share our concerns.


This is the very same logic that creates "white Hispanics" for self justification purposes. If the Church's teachings and doctrines are legitimate, then how could apostates have legitimacy issues with that which is, by definition, legitimate?

If Don believes the entirety of official church doctrine to be legitimate, how could he believe, at the same time, that there are legitimate reasons to leave?

I would think it takes some maturity to recognize that people with whom you disagree might actually have legitimate reasons for their beliefs.


If I thought they were legitimate, then I wouldn't disagree with them, John.
Last edited by Guest on Mon May 07, 2012 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

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_Stormy Waters

Re: Apostasy's A Bummer

Post by _Stormy Waters »

Droopy wrote:You are driven by hate, sour grapes, and a crippling narcissism, but I've never said anything about all those who leave the church as a group.


Droopy earlier today.

Droopy wrote:People leave the church for a variety of reasons, all of which, in the end, revolve around an unwillingness and personal resistance to accepting and living its standards and principles, not around anything Daniel Peterson has ever said.
_Droopy
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Re: Apostasy's A Bummer

Post by _Droopy »

Stormy Waters wrote:
Droopy wrote:You are driven by hate, sour grapes, and a crippling narcissism, but I've never said anything about all those who leave the church as a group.


Droopy earlier today.

Droopy wrote:People leave the church for a variety of reasons, all of which, in the end, revolve around an unwillingness and personal resistance to accepting and living its standards and principles, not around anything Daniel Peterson has ever said.


Nowhere here did I accuse of any of these people, as a group, of being driven by hate, malice, or of being guilty of horrendous moral sins.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
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Re: Apostasy's A Bummer

Post by _Droopy »

Still waiting for some clarification from Kevin as to Don Bradley's perception of the Church as to its core understanding of itself as the authorized Kingdom of God on earth, the core doctrines of which are true and not open to modification and alteration through human intellection.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
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Re: Apostasy's A Bummer

Post by _Droopy »

Graham's probably on the phone with Bradley right at this moment screaming, "Don, what do I tell them? Gimme a break, man!"
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Apostasy's A Bummer

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Just seconds after admitting he doesn't have any insight into the mind of apostates, Droopy makes this proclamation:

You are driven by hate, sour grapes, and a crippling narcissism, but I've never said anything about all those who leave the church as a group. Far from it. You're from the Philastus Hurlbut, Ed Decker, Sonja Johnson wing of the apostate demographic; you still know the church is true at some level, and that knowledge has "seared your conscience as with a hot iron," and left you with a kind of lingering madness in which you have nowhere to go but repentance or all out hostility toward the Church and everything it stands for and approves of, combined with an evangelical mission to convert others out of the church and to your own perspective.


See what I mean? Funny how no one else shares in Loran's psychoanalysis.

No one who actually knows me would ever spew such nonsense, but Loran does it because he has an ax to grind and needs to poison the well as much as he can. Even those who have never met me know this is pure nonsense. Do you think for a second that LDS scholars would be initiating communications with me if they thought Loran's judgment had an inkling of truth to it? This is a favorite tactic among apologists. In reality, Loran hates me for the simple fact that I've actually taken the time to make him look rather stupid, revealing what an ignoramus and hypocrite he really is, and I've done so for years on a number of topics. He takes that personally. Likewise, he has passed similar judgments against others who he calls apostate or others he suspects of apostasy (i.e. Brooks, Bokovoy) . Just look at how he is trying to force words in my mouth about Don's sincerity as a true believing Mormon. He's trying to fish for information so he can then turn it against Don, maybe in hopes that such a revelation to MAD would bring him back into their good graces.

For the record, Don has never said anything to me that would lead me to believe he didn't really believe the Church were true. Ever. He may have said something about believing the Book of Abraham wasn't a true history, but he has never said anything about that to me, and frankly I don't care. I'm not really interested in Don's level of devotion to the Church. That's something personal to him and none of my business.

My point, which should have been clear to anyone with elementary level comprehension skills, is that Don doesn't approach apostates with the same mindset as Loran does. And this is probably because he can relate to much of what we experience. Loran pretends he doesn't judge, but then in the next breath goes on a long winded rant about how deep seated hatred and an internal struggle against knowledge of what's really true is the driving factor in my apostasy. It is the same boilerplate explanation offered by the Church about apostates in general. His evidence? None. It is just one of those stupid, unsupported rants that he likes to repeat to himself for his own satisfaction.
_Runtu
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Re: Apostasy's A Bummer

Post by _Runtu »

Droopy wrote:Still waiting for some clarification from Kevin as to Don Bradley's perception of the Church as to its core understanding of itself as the authorized Kingdom of God on earth, the core doctrines of which are true and not open to modification and alteration through human intellection.


Given that Kevin said nothing about Don's perceptions about such things, why should he clarify? Don never said he had any issues. No one did. You apparently misread Kevin's post.
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Runtu
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Re: Apostasy's A Bummer

Post by _Runtu »

Droopy wrote:Graham's probably on the phone with Bradley right at this moment screaming, "Don, what do I tell them? Gimme a break, man!"


Where is this coming from, Loran? No one in this thread has said anything about Don having some issues or troubles with the church. Just you.
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Apostasy's A Bummer

Post by _Kevin Graham »

He implied that he and others with similar experience do.


Jesus, you're daft. As someone who left the Church, yes, Don had similar experiences, at the time of his apostasy. Those experiences give him unique insight into what other apostates are going through, what drives them, etc, which was my point. But Don has since returned to the Church, and nothing I have said "implied" that Don still has problems with the Church.

I don't know what problems led him out of the Church at the time of his apostasy. I never asked him. He has spoken to me in the past about his conversion back into the Church and I never once challenged him or tried to convince him his experience was anything less than genuinely spiritual. I was happy to accept that he was happy in the Church, and left it at that. As I said, I concede that the Church serves a good purpose for a number of people. Don happens to be one of them and I have no desire to ruin it for them.

This of course, runs contrary to your caricature of me as the hateful apostate.
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