Helping Kevin Graham's Unbelief

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Your first step is to learn patience.

I'm a little unsure of just what this step entails. How can I understand to what degree and what kind of patience it is I need in order to be helped in my unbelief? I'm a father of two children. I'm pretty sure I learned patience through that experience. Does that count?

Your second step is to stop thinking just of yourself, and start thinking of others--like Kevin.

What do I need to think about vis a vis Kevin? I'm unsure of the direction you're going here.

- VRDRC

[Guest]

-

[_wenglund]

The problem with this, Wade, is that Kevin doesn't just want to believe in the Church. He wants to believe in the Church without a bunch of cognitive dissonance. He wants to be able to reconcile belief in the Church with his higher and more important commitments to science, rationality, and non-contradiction. I'm afraid you won't be able to help him with that, no matter how much preaching about humility you do.

Actually, smarter people than Kevin or I, who have been as committed to science and rationality and non-contradiction, have been able to deal with a broad range of cognitive dissonance in healthy and edifying ways that not only allowed for growth in spiritual faith, but enhanced growth in the same.

In short, there are viable solutions to your perceived problem.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_wenglund]

You realize, of course, that these are not mutually inclusive, right?

I realize that they are not mutually exclusive.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

... allowed for growth in spiritual faith, but enhanced growth in the same.

What is spiritual faith?

- VRDRC

[_Chap]

The problem with this, Wade, is that Kevin doesn't just want to believe in the Church. He wants to believe in the Church without a bunch of cognitive dissonance. He wants to be able to reconcile belief in the Church with his higher and more important commitments to science, rationality, and non-contradiction. I'm afraid you won't be able to help him with that, no matter how much preaching about humility you do.

Actually, smarter people than Kevin or I, who have been as committed to science and rationality and non-contradiction, have been able to deal with a broad range of cognitive dissonance in healthy and edifying ways that not only allowed for growth in spiritual faith, but enhanced growth in the same.

In short, there are viable solutions to your perceived problem.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

So that's all right then. Can you just show us an example of (say) a viable solution to this problem:

Here is a facsimile of part of the papyrus that Joseph Smith told people he translated, originally published in a journal he founded and edited (Times and Seasons), with his explanation, and now part of canonized scripture:



And here is the extract from canonized scripture in which Joseph Smith purports to identify the figures, in all but one case based on what he claims are readings of the captions over the figures:

Explanation

1. Abraham sitting upon Pharaoh’s throne, by the politeness of the king, with a crown upon his head, representing the Priesthood, as emblematical of the grand Presidency in Heaven; with the scepter of justice and judgment in his hand.
2. King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head.
3. Signifies Abraham in Egypt as given also in Figure 10 of Facsimile No. 1.
4. Prince of Pharaoh, King of Egypt, as written above the hand.
5. Shulem, one of the king’s principal waiters, as represented by the characters above his hand.
6. Olimlah, a slave belonging to the prince.

All these identifications are nonsensically wrong, and have been known to be wrong ever since hieroglyphs were first accurately deciphered - in fact 'Abraham' is labelled in Egyptian hieroglyphs as Osiris, 'King Pharaoh' is labelled as his wife Isis, object 3 is a ritual stand, figure number 4 is labelled as the goddess Ma'at, number 5 is the deceased Hor, owner of the scroll, and number 6 is the great god Anubis.

It bears repeating that this is a clear demonstration that where we can identify the Egyptian text said to be the source of the Book of Abraham, Joseph Smith's translations were just plain wrong. What is more, they are not wrong in the way they might be if Smith was really receiving a quite unrelated text from God, and mistakenly thinking he was translating some unrelated Egyptian text. He was quite clearly trying to translate the text in front of us, and getting it wrong.

[_wenglund]

You want to score points with Kevin?

Let me tell you 3 simple things you must explain to his satisfaction if you want him to profess his faith in Joseph Smith, translator and seer.

1. What is the king's name in Facsimile No. 3?
2. Where is the name Shulem written in the writing?
3. Why is Anubis called a slave?

Paul O

I am sure this was well intended. However, it is clear that it is made by some more expert in how to lose faith rather than how to retain and grow in faith. And, since Kevin's stated desire is to gain faith, I hope you will forgive me if I rely instead on the wisdom and advise of the experts on how to succeeded in faith.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

I am sure this was well intended. However, it is clear that it is made by some more expert in how to lose faith rather than how to retain and grow in faith. And, since Kevin's stated desire is to gain faith, I hope you will forgive me if I rely instead on the wisdom and advise of the experts on how to succeeded in faith.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Well, you certainly aren't doing anything to help "others" who have expressed a similar interest. I'm practically begging you to guide me back on a path of "spiritual faith", and you decline.

Clearly your offer was disingenuous.

- VRDRC

[_Chap]

You want to score points with Kevin?

Let me tell you 3 simple things you must explain to his satisfaction if you want him to profess his faith in Joseph Smith, translator and seer.

1. What is the king's name in Facsimile No. 3?
2. Where is the name Shulem written in the writing?
3. Why is Anubis called a slave?

Paul O

I am sure this was well intended. However, it is clear that it is made by some more expert in how to lose faith rather than how to retain and grow in faith. And, since Kevin's stated desire is to gain faith, I hope you will forgive me if I rely instead on the wisdom and advise of the experts on how to succeeded in faith.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Ah-hah! I am learning about faith.

So the first step in gaining faith is to decide to pay no attention to facts that might not be conducive to you acquiring it?

Gottit! But ... do I just need to avoid acquiring new non-faith-promoting knowledge, or do I also need to forget the inconvenient facts that I already know?

[_wenglund]

Pretending that you care about Kevin in this way is obscene. You only want to score some point in your quixotic battle to save Mormonism from the skeptical gaze.

I hope you don't mind if I discontinue responding to these kinds of baseless and harshly judgmental emotings that are fast filling up this thread. As I said, I am not here to argue or debate or trade insults. I am here simply to offer Kevin help, if he wants it, in achieving his stated desire.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-