Cutting Edge Research?

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_Kishkumen
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Re: Cutting Edge Research?

Post by _Kishkumen »

Droopy wrote:He has been quite clear and unequivocal that the core mission of Mormon Stories is to assist members of the Church in leaving it and to make their transition out of the Church as emotionally and psychologically comfortable as possible.


That is a bald faced lie, Droopy. He is not advocating that people leave the Church, but he is there for those who have made that decision for themselves. And, if you and your friends thought about it for a moment, or really did care for anything other than your own egos, you would realize that it is probably better for the Church to have someone out there helping them be less bitter on their way out so that they don't haunt the internet as virulent anti-Mormons ever after.

If only you guys had a little imagination.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_lostindc
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Re: Cutting Edge Research?

Post by _lostindc »

Droopy wrote:Paul also sets the Saints a requirement that they "be ready always to give an answer to every man" that seeks to know the nature of the gospel - or to criticize, misrepresent, or manipulate its teachings for his own purposes.

And that is what I intend to do.


Image

go get em!!! Not one poster on this board can see how this could backfire.
2019 = #100,000missionariesstrong
_Chap
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Re: Cutting Edge Research?

Post by _Chap »

Kishkumen wrote:
Droopy wrote:He has been quite clear and unequivocal that the core mission of Mormon Stories is to assist members of the Church in leaving it and to make their transition out of the Church as emotionally and psychologically comfortable as possible.


That is a bald faced lie, Droopy ....


East to settle. Droopy's proof should be in here somewhere:

mormonstories wrote:Here's the PowerPoint presentation, for those who want to skip/skim through it.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3563634/OSFFun ... rt%29.pptx

Sorry we don't have a transcript yet, but can work on getting something out.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Droopy
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Re: Cutting Edge Research?

Post by _Droopy »

No, Droopy. You don't understand Church government as laid out in the scriptures and upheld by the apostles and prophets in our time.


Oh, but I do, Kishkumen. I do. And if I dood it, I get a whippin'...


No one has authorized any member in any place at any time to be an Accuser at Large for the Church in the world. Instead, there is an order to the government of the Church in which those who hold the keys and have the stewardship make those calls, not "some guy" in the South with an internet connection and an axe to grind.


I am not doing anything for the Church in any official apostolic or otherwise General Authority capacity. And I do not have any authority to restrict, disfellowship, excommunicate, or otherwise pass ultimate judgement on Dehlin, not have I claimed such. The oath and covenant of the priesthood places a requirement and a mandate upon me, however, to "preach, teach, expound, exhort, and warn," to stand as a witness for Christ and his gospel (and church) at all times and in all places. There is no restriction upon this. John Dehlin is a member of a ward somewhere. He is as liable to be warned, upbraided, challenged, and confronted in his apostasy and project to assist and encourage others to leave the church by anyone in his own ward and stake as by me. Further, as Mr. Dehlin as taken his role as Shepherd of the doubting and dissident into the public sphere, he is therefore liable to criticism and challenge in the public sphere.

Have you received a calling to accuse people online?


No. I have received a calling and covenant to defend the gospel, preach it, teach it, expound it, and "warn my neighbor" at all times and in all places.

Well, enough of this blah, blah, blah. Its a nice try at some very clever, if not to sophisticated sophistry, Kish, but you simply don't understand priesthood government nor the gospel of Jesus Christ as a system. Its very decentralized. So long as I accuse Dehlin correctly, and with the proper motives, I am called to do so.

So long as I interpret scripture correctly, and in harmony with the Spirit and with settled Church teaching, I am called to do so. That is not limited to my ward. It is not limited to my stake. It is not limited in geography or venue. What is limited is my authority to make any determinations regarding anyone's standing in the church as a member, to teach or claim that others must adhere to doctrines that have not been revealed or taught, and to administer in any official capacity to which I have not been called by priesthood authority.

There is no limit upon confronting false doctrine, apostasy, and "grievous wolves," and challenging their claims on an individual basis, whether in private or public.

But then, what do you know about it...
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Kishkumen
_Emeritus
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Re: Cutting Edge Research?

Post by _Kishkumen »

Droopy wrote:I am not doing anything for the Church in any official apostolic or otherwise General Authority capacity. And I do not have any authority to restrict, disfellowship, excommunicate, or otherwise pass ultimate judgement on Dehlin, not have I claimed such. The oath and covenant of the priesthood places a requirement and a mandate upon me, however, to "preach, teach, expound, exhort, and warn," to stand as a witness for Christ and his gospel (and church) at all times and in all places.


Your mandate to preach, teach, expound, exhort, and warn does not include talking about John Dehlin or other members of the Church behind their backs or in the general public square as their accuser. It is a vile and pernicious argument to claim that you have any such mandate to do so. If everyone in the Church took it upon themselves to do as you do with every species of sin, then there would be general chaos. You are selectively interpreting the scriptures to cover your own wrongdoing. Do you go around accusing your fellow members of watching rated R movies?

If you were to see your bishop go into a rated R movie, would you go online to decry his actions? What if every member of the Church were to follow your example in treating John Dehlin this way, and accuse their fellow members, as individuals, of sin out in the public square?

The results would be chaos. And yet, you are creating chaos and ill feelings even in doing what you are doing. You are contributing to a climate of fear in Mormonism, in which people are made to feel like there are rogue elements with uncertain authority that can attack whomever they disagree with at will, without any consequences. It was high time that the Church take away the patina of authority from the Review in its slams on fellow members of the LDS Church by removing Daniel Peterson as editor. If he could not be persuaded to desist from such deleterious activities, I am glad someone else forced him to stop.

The only comfort I take in all of this, Droopy, is that you are no one of consequence, simply out there speaking your opinion, and without any authority over John Dehlin. I believe your actions are wrong. And, I would advise you to stop, but my real concern was that this kind of witch hunt was being conducted from BYU campus. And it has stopped. So, that's good enough for me. May it never return. Good riddance.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Cicero
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Re: Cutting Edge Research?

Post by _Cicero »

Droopy wrote:
Well, enough of this blah, blah, blah. Its a nice try at some very clever, if not to sophisticated sophistry, Kish, but you simply don't understand priesthood government nor the gospel of Jesus Christ as a system. Its very decentralized


The church is decentralized? News to me. Correlation? Line of authority? Keys vs. authority?
_Kishkumen
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Re: Cutting Edge Research?

Post by _Kishkumen »

Cicero wrote:The church is decentralized? News to me. Correlation? Line of authority? Keys vs. authority?


Droopy is doing what he does best: talking out of his rear end and saying whatever comes to "mind."
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Shulem
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Re: Cutting Edge Research?

Post by _Shulem »

I'll just state for the record that if the man Jesus was anything like Droopy, I'm damn glad they crucified his ass and sent him packing.

I thought this time Droopy was gone for good but he always comes back. Not even Jesus can pull that trick. Still waiting on Jesus to return and it's been 2000 years!

And, Facsimile No. 3 Explanations are pure church garbage.

Paul O
_Droopy
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Re: Cutting Edge Research?

Post by _Droopy »

Kishkumen wrote:
Droopy wrote:He has been quite clear and unequivocal that the core mission of Mormon Stories is to assist members of the Church in leaving it and to make their transition out of the Church as emotionally and psychologically comfortable as possible.


That is a bald faced lie, Droopy.


No, its the truth of the matter that comes from looking at Dehlin's carefully and subtly worded explanations of this motives and mission, the site's political and social positions and preoccupations, and from a look at the testimonials at this website. The clever rhetorical and psychological ploy Dehlin uses to mask his rather obvious core focus, is to claim that he is not advocating that people stay in the Church or come out of it. He want's to have a place where people can feel comfortable with any decision they make - a thoroughly relativistic womb in which any decision, whether to leave the church or stay in as a cultural, but not converted Mormon, is OK. Its like a grand Rogerian Client Centered therapy workshop. Stay or leave, its OK. No challenge, just warm, fuzzy acceptance and affirmation.

Nice, wonderful, New Ageish stuff, until one realizes (and one might not realize this unless one is a "TBM" Mormon), that it is the Bishop's, Stake Presidents, and other members of a person's ward or stake who should really be the one's turned to during a crisis of faith, and especially those local ecclesiastical authorities who have the role and responsibility to help members through these kind of transitions. This, however, is not what most of these folks want to deal with, because this might mean that one's desire to rebel against various standards of the Church, to reject core doctrines, to throw oneself fully into political or social movements inconsistent with Church teachings, to openly accept a homosexual orientation (the obsession at Mormon Stories, as with Religion Dispatches, with homosexuality and homosexual marriage is at saturation levels), rejection of the mantel and authority of Joseph Smith or the modern Brethren etc., will, while not necessarily opposed by Dehlin, also not be challenged or questioned.

Beneath all of this, just beneath the surface, lies the real motive, which is to encourage any number of alternatives to church membership while leaving staying in the church a theoretical option.

This is, effectively, to encourage and shepherd others, not necessarily into but through the process of apostasy, while affirming and supporting that decision, and that is just as evil, just as wicked, and just as much the encouraging of the diminution and possibly destruction of the soul as is any other form of relativistic sophistry that claims to be caring and loving, but is hiding a needle underneath all that cotton.

He is not advocating that people leave the Church, but he is there for those who have made that decision for themselves.


Exactly. He is a facilitator of apostasy. Wolves facilitate the killing and eating of tasty little lambs that have wandered from the fold, do they not? They just take advantage of the opportunities presented, no?

And, if you and your friends thought about it for a moment, or really did care for anything other than your own egos, you would realize that it is probably better for the Church to have someone out there helping them be less bitter on their way out so that they don't haunt the internet as virulent anti-Mormons ever after.


People like Kevin Graham were probably as they were long before they left. Indeed, it is highly likely that those personological attributes were key in the apostasy itself. There are plenty of people who fall away from the church who do not, and never will, behave as does the classic public anti-Mormon.

If only you guys had a little imagination.


We do.

We also have your number.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
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Re: Cutting Edge Research?

Post by _Droopy »

The church is decentralized? News to me. Correlation? Line of authority? Keys vs. authority?



Educate yourself on the doctrines and government of the Church, or please don't bother.

Its really a bit of a bore.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
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