What are some positive teachings in Mormonism?

[_RockSlider]

The article that you volunteered indicates that Mormons are primarily involved in helping themselves.

Well you know the old saying "God helps those that help themselves.

Get a Job!

[_Darth J]

Now here's Ray's New York Times article:

The idea that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints spends most of its money on “anti-gay marriage referenda” is a little like the idea that the federal government spends most of its money bankrolling public broadcasting. (The Mormons spent about $180,000 on ads during the Prop. 8 debate in California — about one twelfth of the money the church received from Romney alone in the last two years, and the equivalent of a rounding error in, say, Sheldon Adelson’s donations to Newt Gingrich’s campaign.) As for what else the Mormons spend money on — well, yes, like most successful religious organizations, they do build a lot of churches and temples. But they also run one of the America’s most effective private welfare states, which plays a not-inconsiderable role in Utah’s strikingly low poverty and unemployment rates. (When I was in Salt Lake City last year, my host pointed out a number of recession-era construction project that he said were being funded by the church, which suggests that some enterprising economics reporter or blogger could write a great piece about Mormon Keynesianism.)

The above is a very poorly-crafted equivocation between how much the LDS Church itself spent on the Proposition 8 campaign (which the Church lied about) and "Mormons." Individual members of the LDS Church, under the mandate of the Bretheren, donated substantially more than $180K to the Prop 8 campaign.

By the way, Ray, since you brought up how much Mormons allegedly contribute to charities, why not include how much money Mormons are willing to donate to prevent other people from receiving equal protection of law?

As for what else the Mormons spend money on — well, yes, like most successful religious organizations, they do build a lot of churches and temples. But they also run one of the America’s most effective private welfare states, which plays a not-inconsiderable role in Utah’s strikingly low poverty and unemployment rates. (When I was in Salt Lake City last year, my host pointed out a number of recession-era construction project that he said were being funded by the church, which suggests that some enterprising economics reporter or blogger could write a great piece about Mormon Keynesianism.)

Those construction projects being City Creek Center and other business ventures. But certainly we can all agree that high-end retail is the epitome of charity work.

… Mormons are supposed to forgo two meals a month and donate the cost of the food to a local fund for the needy. This may not sound much but it gives each (relatively small) congregation over $50,000 to spend a year, which buys a lot of soup kitchens. With 3,600 congregations in Utah alone, the system produces nearly $200m annually: about a fifth of what Utah’s state government spends on welfare, and almost as much as it spends on health.

First, this money is again going to themselves. Fast offerings are for Mormons, not for "soup kitchens." Second, fast offerings are not set aside for church welfare. All money that is donated to the Church goes into the same pot, to be used however the Church decides, and members have no say nor any knowledge on how the money is spent. The disclaimer on the current donation slips explains this. Third, members on welfare still are expected to pay tithing. Tithing comes before anything else, including buying food. The Church comes out ahead in this setup, because the cash it gets from tithing from needy members will generally be worth more than the commodities it gives out to needy members.

In other words, contemporary liberalism offers religious groups a choice. They can try to serve the widest possible population, in which case a liberal administration will set rules that force them to violate their conscience. Or they can serve a narrower one, in which case liberal journalists will sneer at them (and their most generous benefactors) for only caring about their co-religionists.

This is a non sequitur. Charitable acts like running a soup kitchen are not comparable to employer-provided health insurance at "Catholic universities or social-service agencies and hospitals." Regardless of what one thinks about health care regulations, the contraception mandate has to do with non-Catholic employees at Catholic institutions performing secular functions. That has nothing to do with how broadly a religious organization is willing to disperse its charitable efforts.

[_RayAgostini]

By the way, Ray, since you brought up how much Mormons allegedly contribute to charities, why not include how much money Mormons are willing to donate to prevent other people from receiving equal protection of law?

Because that wasn't the purpose of the thread. The positive teachings I saw have to do with "giving", "helping", and so forth.

But in any case:

Donations totaling $1.4 million have made The Knights of Columbus, a Catholic fraternal organization, the largest institutional donor to the Yes on 8 campaign.

Catholic Bishops Donate $200K to Prop 8 Fight

Time to wage war against the Catholics too, Darth.

[_sansfoy]

… Mormons are supposed to forgo two meals a month and donate the cost of the food to a local fund for the needy. This may not sound much but it gives each (relatively small) congregation over $50,000 to spend a year, which buys a lot of soup kitchens. With 3,600 congregations in Utah alone, the system produces nearly $200m annually: about a fifth of what Utah’s state government spends on welfare, and almost as much as it spends on health.

First, this money is again going to themselves. Fast offerings are for Mormons, not for "soup kitchens." Second, fast offerings are not set aside for church welfare. All money that is donated to the Church goes into the same pot, to be used however the Church decides, and members have no say nor any knowledge on how the money is spent.

I think you're a little hard on this one. In my experience, church welfare goes primarily to inactive or part member families and while there is often work going on simultaneously to reactivate the families receiving the aid, I have seen a lot of generosity through church-sponsored assistance.

[_Darth J]

The article that you volunteered indicates that Mormons are primarily involved in helping themselves.

Let's re-read:

Mormons also give on average, on top of the tithe donation to the church, some $1,800 each year to charitable causes undertaken by the church.

One of those charitable causes was a flood-affected city (and several lives lost), in which I happen to live.

Yes, Ray. They have to give money beyond tithing if they want to help anyone other than themselves, because tithing is not charity. However, since the Church won't tell its donors where the money goes, neither you nor the people who performed this study have any way of knowing whether that additional $,1800 per year does in fact go to charitable causes undertaken by the Church, since the form you fill out when you donate to the Church indicates that all funds will be used however the Church decides.

Neither I nor the person whom your article quoted said that Mormons don't give anything to charities outside of themselves. What he said, and I said, is that the vast majority of Mormons' interest in charity concerns themselves. E.g.,

http://www.beliefnet.com/Love-Family/Ch ... y.aspx?p=2

The local [Salt Lake City] United Way raised only $8.2-million last year; the average for a United Way in a city of this size is $26-million. Members of the LDS church make up only 24 percent of the local United Way donors who give $1,000 or more, even though they account for half the local population. And the United Way of America ranks Utah 48th in the nation in per-capita giving to nonreligious charities.

"We'd be happy to do even half as well as other communities do," says Ms. Nielsen, who is not Mormon. "We know that a lot of people here are strapped, but there are a lot of other people who use that as an excuse. Of the 50 percent that are Mormon, a lot aren't full-tithe payers. And the non-Mormons aren't tithing at all."


And guess what, Ray? That $1,800 that Mormons give to actual charity,* as opposed to levies to support their favorite religious organization? That's less than the U.S. average of charitable donations.

http://www.aei.org/article/society-and- ... give-more/

According to the Center on Philanthropy Panel Study, the average American family that gave to charity in 2002 donated $1,917. And contrary to what some might assume, this giving does not all--or even mostly--support houses of worship. The Giving U.S.A. Foundation reports that only about a third of individual gifts go toward religious causes; the rest are earmarked for secular concerns like education and health.

*Supposedly, anyway. The Church won't tell anyone how fast offerings and other donations are spent.

[_Darth J]

I think you're a little hard on this one. In my experience, church welfare goes primarily to inactive or part member families and while there is often work going on simultaneously to reactivate the families receiving the aid, I have seen a lot of generosity through church-sponsored assistance.

That's not what I said. I said that LDS church welfare is not analogous to a soup kitchen. The welfare system is for tithe payers and potential tithe payers. It is not for the community at large.

[Guest]

By the way, Ray, since you brought up how much Mormons allegedly contribute to charities, why not include how much money Mormons are willing to donate to prevent other people from receiving equal protection of law?

Because that wasn't the purpose of the thread. The positive teachings I saw have to do with "giving", "helping", and so forth.

The "giving" and "helping" is primarily to support the Church as an institution. Your own cited articles show that.

But in any case:

Donations totaling $1.4 million have made The Knights of Columbus, a Catholic fraternal organization, the largest institutional donor to the Yes on 8 campaign.

Catholic Bishops Donate $200K to Prop 8 Fight

Time to wage war against the Catholics too, Darth.

At what point did I indicate that Mormons were the only group to mistakenly assert that their religious dogma should dictate the parameters of the 14th Amendment? How about, for the first time ever, you support some of your babbling about my supposed agenda or whatever, and show where I said it's only Mormons who were wrong on this?

ETA: And by the way, Ray, there is nothing surprising about Catholic donations to the Prop 8 campaign surpassing those of Mormons in absolute number of dollars, since Catholics vastly outnumber Mormons in California. What bothers people about the LDS Church's involvement with Prop 8, among other things, is the disproportionate amount of influence Mormons had relative to their percentage of the population.

[_Bob Loblaw]

Mormons are positive they are right. :)

[_zeezrom]

Be thrifty.

[_RayAgostini]

However, since the Church won't tell its donors where the money goes, neither you nor the people who performed this study have any way of knowing whether that additional $,1800 per year does in fact go to charitable causes undertaken by the Church, since the form you fill out when you donate to the Church indicates that all funds will be used however the Church decides.

I suppose I should be skeptical of newspaper reports too, but in any case we know where this money went:

Water from the mountain ranges behind the city overflowed creeks and raced through the city, moving boulders the size of cars and knocking houses from their foundations. More than 3,000 houses were damaged and 1,500 families were left homeless.

Damage was estimated to exceed $100 million. The city infrastructure alone received more than $50 million in damage.

Elder Vaughn J Featherstone of the Seventy and president of the Church's Australia/New Zealand Area presented the $100,000 check to New South Wales Premier Bob Carr and...Mayor David Campbell Oct. 29.

Mr. Carr said some families and businesses in the area lost everything. "The courage and the community spirit shown in Wollongong is heartening but we must all do whatever we can to assist them to recover."

The Church's donation will go a long way to do just that, he explained.

We do in fact know where most of it goes:

Facts regarding the LDS Humanitarian Program

Neither I nor the person whom your article quoted said that Mormons don't give anything to charities outside of themselves. What he said, and I said, is that the vast majority of Mormons' interest in charity concerns themselves. E.g.,

A poor man can't help a poor man. Of course people, and organisations, look after themselves first. You do it. I do it. And all organisations do it. It's just common sense.

And guess what, Ray? That $1,800 that Mormons give to actual charity,* as opposed to levies to support their favorite religious organization? That's less than the U.S. average of charitable donations.

Well, of course, because there are more "average" Americans than there are Mormons, including millionaires and multimillionaires, so the average will work out more.

Among religious organisations, I'll borrow a page from Chris Smith's blog:

Mormons Give More, Says Christianity Today.