Steven Covey Lifts up His Eyes in Hell

[_Nightlion]

Nightlion's whole attitude of self-righteous superiority (narcissism really) bothers me. I cannot deny it. It reminds me of the very worst of Mormonism. The part that I loathed and despised.

I don't see a prophet crying as in the wilderness. I see a little jealous child who uses religious language to belittle and berate another.

The prophets of the Bible (and the Book of Mormon) represent nothing more than the petty, self-righteous aspects of the tiny egoic mind. Full of vitriol and self loathing.

If there is a God, representatives of such a being could only be full of pure love and non-judgementalism, because that is all that God can be. Otherwise, they are wholly deluded. It is hate language cloaked in religious vernacular. Pure and simple.

So IF there is a God he has to come in the box you proscribed for him.
You seem to have a need to control everything around you. Why is that?

If I was ever so Mormon why did they hate me always? And a real narcissist could not endure my life a single day.

[_Tarski]

I do not think the issue here is religion for Tarski. What seems to bother him my impugning the honors of men. An ideal man of honor like Covey is archetypical for all the esteemed honors men can garner to themselves in this life. To cast him headlong into the infernal pit as a trodden carcass under foot must give some pause to those whose hearts are set upon the honors of men and the praise of the world.

Let me just offer a word of advice to those still choosing. You know how your were told that a solid education was the foundation for a good life? Well as far as you can go with that will count for dick in the next life.

If you want a good life in eternity you got to plan for it and prepare for it and work the work that opens the doors and generates freedom and privilege and friends in high places and respect and confidence with those who own all the keys and can open all the doors. You get my drift?

A phoney diploma mill will not get you that solid foundation for this life. A phoney gospel of love-God-light will not open doors in eternity.
'Nuff said?

You have it wrong. Your powers as a seer are failing (Kish has it wrong too).
I don't care about the honors of men or any particular god or devil. I don't care about diplomas as such or personal income or fame.
I care about truth and learning among other things. I don't pretend to have cosmic answers. I appreciate selflessness and wish i had more of it (as well as other virtues).
I have done wrong often and I am responsible. And I can't quite see how a man or god hanging on a cross could ever fix it. I did what I did.
I also care about having a good time to be frank.

I believing in forgiving people. My wife has wronged me and sinned plenty. My father wasn't always the best. I forgive them.

Both you and Kish seem to think my attitude about Covey and all that has something to do with Covey's social stature or success. What you miss is that I would be even more upset if someone like him had consigned you to hell.
It has nothing to do with anyone's stature among men. I don't think Covey is better than you in any final moral sense.
It is just ridiculous to suppose that Covey, or Donald Trump for that matter, deserves hell for being on a business man success trip or for being on a spiritual guru trip (as are you). Ordinary derision perhaps, but not eternal damnation.

I suspect that every single person familiar with your Apocalrock stuff thinks that you are suffering from some kind of delusion. I don't think majority opinion settles things. My point is that many don't dare say so or maybe they don't give a crap.
The difference is that they think you are so far out of it that no direct honest approach could ever work.
I think that part of you knows it and that it isn't impossible that a frank assessment might shake you out of it.
I don't begrudge Kish's "diplomatic approach" if he has your best interests at heart but that just isn't the approach I ended up taking with you.

Come on, out of all of us apocalrock denying heathens, who dares to be frank about our opinion?
Me for one.

As for seeing the patterns in the Apocalrock, sometimes i do and sometimes i don't. This is just that same as when I see the ducks or doggies in the clouds that my granddaughter sees. Sometimes I see it and sometimes I see other things.
I see space craft, naked women, and the faces of Newton or Darwin which is the type of thing I would likely see if I stared at the patterns of light and shadow on a mountain.
It is a mundane perceptual effect. (but then I explained this obvious stuff already)
I simply invite you to let that stuff go and focus on other healthy things as I suggested. It isn't going anywhere anyway.

Start but writing a song that isn't a preach.
Have a good meal.
Then get laid (by your wife if you are married).

[_Equality]

Come on, out of all of us apocalrock denying heathens, who dares to be frank about our opinion?
Me for one.

I will join you. My opinion on apocalrock is this: Juggler Vain has completely shredded any argument Nightlion may have had. The human brain can find the patterns it wants to find given even the smallest incentive to do so. I dig Nightlion's sincerity and appreciate it. I respect him more than the Mopologetic hypocrites and numbskulls who generally post around here. But he's deluded to the nth degree. Of course, i could be wrong, Maybe I'm the one who is deluded.

[_Nightlion]

I have done wrong often and I am responsible. And I can't quite see how a man or god hanging on a cross could ever fix it. I did what I did.
I also care about having a good time to be frank.

You doubting that Christ could ever fix what's wrong is precisely why my experience and expertise is so important. Covey has neither by the way. That is why I rebuke him posthumously. He was given a voice and a rabid audience and had nothing of substance to offer to heal the nations or solve the problems of human souls. Yet he pretended to it and that is abuse of the innocent. How can you not be outraged as much as I?

I was given a weakness only God could fix. I left home after High School to seek just that. I read of it in the Book of Mormon and knew enough from growing up LDS to be aware that Christ is a healer and redeemer and mediator and Savior.

It would be dumb for me to pretend otherwise, God drew me to it. No way I just happened to stumble upon the exact precise method that actually works on my own. It was miraculous and yet subtle. I was always free to think my own thoughts and seek to come unto Christ with full purpose of heart.

After I was visited of God's power and received the gospel and a myriad of blessings poured out so abundantly it took many years to assess how it was and how it can be replicated by others.

Short answer is that this generation of existence upon the planet is so overwhelming that the gospel CANNOT be accomplished under any circumstances within the standard operating culture, even LDS. It is vain for anyone to attempt to merge this world with Christ's gospel. It is not going to happen. Never. So all the pretender are of a necessity to pretend. What else?

This is why I have failed in forty years of earnest effort to attract the least bit of faith from thousands who hear what I say. They know I am scripturally spot on. But they also know that there is a disconnect and it just does not work for them. So they have to assume it is BS or become hypocrite and pretend.

That is why I like this board. For the most part people come here throwing off hypocrisy. They also toss out the baby with the bathwater by and large.

God is not a sexual being. Yet he wants us to become his children. Everything done by God has this one goal in mind. How to take the children of exalted parentage and make them his own. The gospel of Jesus Christ is that process. Christ's atonement was where he OBTAINED from the bowels of eternity, from justice, from judgment, from mercy and from love the very power to fix things.

The fixing is our conception as his sons and daughters. We must come unto him to allow him to so intimately change us into new creatures. He is our Maker and he is our ReMaker as it were.

As extraordinary as was the preparation of my weakness in this world that caused me to seek a new creation, just as extraordinarily must everyone who would seek these things must forsake the powers of this world to get drawn of the Father to come unto Christ aright.

Somehow it is just for there to be all the distractions of the world against the accomplishment of the gospel. We see into infinity and comprehend the tiniest particles of God's handiwork. We are the only literate culture known to have ever existed. We have a flood of information streaming at us constantly. And yet we are more blind than the Ancients who only had the stars to muse upon.

How else can you explain that I got it precisely right without a mentor and yet proven consistent with all accounts in all scripture and was healed in the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, unless it is true?

The testimony of my newness of life was rejected by family, friends, and the LDS Church immediately when I returned home. I have flourished in the Lord for more than a generation of time and only proven more true to all that ever went before in this same regard.

The provenance of my spiritual life defies any other explanation than the power of absolute truth. It counts for the salt of the earth.
My braggadocio is only a sly self deprecation and you know it.

[_Nightlion]

Come on, out of all of us apocalrock denying heathens, who dares to be frank about our opinion?
Me for one.

I will join you. My opinion on apocalrock is this: Juggler Vain has completely shredded any argument Nightlion may have had. The human brain can find the patterns it wants to find given even the smallest incentive to do so. I dig Nightlion's sincerity and appreciate it. I respect him more than the Mopologetic hypocrites and numbskulls who generally post around here. But he's deluded to the nth degree. Of course, i could be wrong, Maybe I'm the one who is deluded.

Oh, you think Juggler Vain's antics shredded the revelation of The Apocalrock? Really? Talented graffiti no doubt. But I knew that was coming eventually. All truth gets overwritten after the likeness and image of the world. He gave you a license to free you mind. Okay.

I do not see the Lord packing it in. The Apocalrock is not my own invention. I expect that the Lord has some serious utility to make of it. He is not finished with its unfolding yet. Just within two weeks I have been given to see Samson wielding the jawbone of an ass and pushing down the temple pillars layered front and center and on the exact same spot a layer that shows David and Bathsheba cavorting with a young Solomon for a determinant with the most astounding eye of wisdom you could imagine.

I will get my video JV showed was possible. It will teach you better than the haphazard means I toss up here. And hey, deluded guys never get things right. So, how do you figure I am unassailable in doctrine consistent with the ages that can only be shown by one who knows what to look for? hmm?

With so many scholars abounding surely someone should be smart enough to hand me my spiritual jock. hmm?

[_Kishkumen]

You have it wrong. Your powers as a seer are failing (Kish has it wrong too).

I doubt you know enough about my position and motivations to say so, but so be it.

I don't care about the honors of men or any particular god or devil. I don't care about diplomas as such or personal income or fame.
I care about truth and learning among other things. I don't pretend to have cosmic answers. I appreciate selflessness and wish i had more of it (as well as other virtues).
I have done wrong often and I am responsible. And I can't quite see how a man or god hanging on a cross could ever fix it. I did what I did.
I also care about having a good time to be frank.

Good for you. The fact that Nightlion believes in Christ, the atonement, and that God enlightens his mind does not make him delusional or any less of a person than you. There is a fundamental disconnect between you and Nightlion regarding your different understandings and beliefs. You impugn his actions based on your assumptions and understanding. Whether he is deserving of your dismissive treatment and opprobrium is another matter.

I believing in forgiving people. My wife has wronged me and sinned plenty. My father wasn't always the best. I forgive them.

Prophetic condemnation and personal forgiveness are not the same thing. Nightlion speaking as a prophet about the state of Covey's soul is not necessarily an expression of a personal grudge against the man.

Both you and Kish seem to think my attitude about Covey and all that has something to do with Covey's social stature or success. What you miss is that I would be even more upset if someone like him had consigned you to hell.
It has nothing to do with anyone's stature among men. I don't think Covey is better than you in any final moral sense.
It is just ridiculous to suppose that Covey, or Donald Trump for that matter, deserves hell for being on a business man success trip or for being on a spiritual guru trip (as are you). Ordinary derision perhaps, but not eternal damnation.

Nightlion is speaking in the prophetic mode in accordance with his understanding of Christian doctrine. You do both him and Covey a disservice by dismissing what they respectively do (which, by the way, is not the same) as "playing guru."

I suspect that every single person familiar with your Apocalrock stuff thinks that you are suffering from some kind of delusion. I don't think majority opinion settles things. My point is that many don't dare say so or maybe they don't give a crap.

Or maybe, unlike you, they sense clearly when they are out of their depth. Socrates, one of my favorite wise men, once observed that those who are expert in one area assume they are expert and have valuable insights in all areas. Never was that demonstrated more clearly than on online message boards.

[_Tarski]

I doubt you know enough about my position and motivations to say so, but so be it.

I know what you have said here. But you're right that I don't think I can take it at face value.
After all, you and Trevor aren't even on the same page ;).

Good for you. The fact that Nightlion believes in Christ, the atonement, and that God enlightens his mind does not make him delusional or any less of a person than you.

You conveniently left out the only-prophet-in-the-world stuff as well as the cartoons on the mountain stuff.

You impugn his actions based on your assumptions and understanding.

Yes I do generally use my own understanding and my dutifully examined assumptions. How about you? Are you driving at one of these radical social relativism angles (the world is equaly well described by atoms or by demons)?

Whether he is deserving of your dismissive treatment and opprobrium is another matter.

If I were merely dismissing him I wouldn't be reading everything he is writing and I wouldn't be going on like this.

Prophetic condemnation and personal forgiveness are not the same thing. Nightlion speaking as a prophet about the state of Covey's soul is not necessarily an expression of a personal grudge against the man.

Oh really? If you can't pick up his palpable grudge against Mormon authorities (esp. GBH), then you haven't been paying attention.

Nightlion is speaking in the prophetic mode in accordance with his understanding of Christian doctrine. You do both him and Covey a disservice by dismissing what they respectively do (which, by the way, is not the same) as "playing guru."

Exactly what disservice?

Or maybe, unlike you, they sense clearly when they are out of their depth.

Out of my depth? First of all I haven't heard anything from Nightlion that strikes me as qualitatively different than the speculations of all sorts of LDS I have met and it doesn't stand out or appear to be beyond my ken even if I assume the existence of God or even the truth of the Book of Mormon.

If I am out of my depth maybe I should consider that Nightlion could be right in his theories about homosexuals in the pre-existence, about his denial of evolutionary theory and derision of science in general. Perhaps he is the only zion ready human and perhaps Covey is suffering in hell as we speak. Such is the wisdom of the man whom you seem to increasingly admire.

Socrates, one of my favorite wise men, once observed that those who are expert in one area assume they are expert and have valuable insights in all areas.

Are you referring to the how Nightlion's Book of Mormon studies allow him to make judgments about evolutionary science or on human sexuality?
Or is it that I am not an expert on the Book of Mormon etc?

Is it not possible that I know more about Book of Mormon theology than Nightlion knows about either of those subjects (evolution, sexuality)? You might be wise to guess that after 55 years of life termoil and obsessive studying and searching, I might have done a few things besides learn physics. In fact, part of my interest here is rooted in the fact that I have "suffered" through my own visions (and not mere visions). In fact, you have no idea what I have experienced and been exposed to. So who is out of their depth? Are you sure?

In anycase, you are welcome to soak up Nightlion's wisdom and encourage him to hold fast to the reality of his special status in the world. Perhaps he will get a convert afterall.

[_madeleine]

Come on, out of all of us apocalrock denying heathens, who dares to be frank about our opinion?
Me for one.

I will join you. My opinion on apocalrock is this: Juggler Vain has completely shredded any argument Nightlion may have had. The human brain can find the patterns it wants to find given even the smallest incentive to do so. I dig Nightlion's sincerity and appreciate it. I respect him more than the Mopologetic hypocrites and numbskulls who generally post around here. But he's deluded to the nth degree. Of course, i could be wrong, Maybe I'm the one who is deluded.

Some see Jesus in toast and tortillas, others on the face of a mountain. I don't hold any ideas that I can say God can, or God can't, use these sort of things for His own good. Even if a psycho-behavioral explanation can be given for them, there is still something being experienced. Even if it can be named simply as, "faith". There is in that, a grace.

The risk is, applying an explanation that doesn't allow for grace. So, I leave the judging of one's own experience to that person. God may have a hand in it, or not. Interpretation of the experience may be off.

[_Kishkumen]

Is it not possible that I know more about Book of Mormon theology than Nightlion knows about either of those subjects (evolution, sexuality)? You might be wise to guess that after 55 years of life termoil and obsessive studying and searching, I might have done a few things besides learn physics. In fact, part of my interest here is rooted in the fact that I have "suffered" through my own visions (and not mere visions). In fact, you have no idea what I have experienced and been exposed to. So who is out of their depth? Are you sure?

In anycase, you are welcome to soak up Nightlion's wisdom and encourage him to hold fast to the reality of his special status in the world. Perhaps he will get a convert afterall.

Tarski,

I could continue to trade piss with you, but this is pointless. In dealing with Nightlion as you have, you are addressing a complex issue. You have suggested he is mentally ill. You have criticized his doctrinal views in general terms. I don't expect you to agree with Nightlion. But that is not why you and I are arguing, is it? We are arguing because you decided that I was handling all of this poorly by not correcting Nightlion, but rather raising specific points in which I agreed with something he said.

Of course, you are conveniently interpreting this as my blanket approval of everything that Nightlion says, because you are more interested in winning argument points than really understanding either me or Nightlion. That's OK. It is what we generally do here. But I will point out that you are doing it, because I don't have to accept your mistaken or semi-informed views about me, my position, or Nightlion.

When David Koresh and his followers holed themselves up in their Waco compound, the authorities brought in bona fide experts to deal with him. Still, they failed. Now, you could say, and probably do, that this is because David Koresh was mentally ill and thus intractable. I don't know. I am not so sure. Neither am I eager to accept your assessment of Nightlion, which seems to me to fall more or less within the range of stock atheist strategies for dealing with the religious here on MDB.

Don't get me wrong. I have the greatest respect for your brains. But, I don't think either one of us is really qualified to tackle Nightlion. Other more expert people have taken on men who claimed a prophetic mantle, and they failed miserably. I will admit that I like Nightlion. There are aspects of his teaching that better match the spirit and substance of Book of Mormon teachings than what you may hear from others. I respect him in the sense that I think he is serious, has put a great deal of thought into this, and probably has the best of intentions. In theological terms, I would call him "a" prophet in the Judeo-Christian tradition.

Please don't jump to conclusions and tell me what I think. And sorry, but I don't believe that you are more expert than the men who were sent to deal with Koresh.

[_Tarski]

I could continue to trade piss with you, but this is pointless.

indeed

In dealing with Nightlion as you have, you are addressing a complex issue.

jee, I never considered that.

You have suggested he is mentally ill. You have criticized his doctrinal views in general terms. I don't expect you to agree with Nightlion. But that is not why you and I are arguing, is it? We are arguing because you decided that I was handling all of this poorly by not correcting Nightlion, but rather raising specific points in which I agreed with something he said.

He shows his worst side and you decide that is the best time to be especially complimentary. OK. To me that sends a general message of approval despite how careful you were to not agree with the nasty specifics.

Of course, you are conveniently interpreting this as my blanket approval of everything that Nightlion says, because you are more interested in winning argument points than really understanding either me or Nightlion. That's OK. It is what we generally do here. But I will point out that you are doing it, because I don't have to accept your mistaken or semi-informed views about me, my position, or Nightlion.

I try to understand Nightlion by reading what he writes.
In your case I don't put too much effort into understanding the real you since you juggle personae. That looks fun and maybe harmless but it has its consequences for understanding and trust. (In your case the effect is rather minor I'll admit---I mostly trust you and I more or less get you as much as you actually want me to)

Neither am I eager to accept your assessment of Nightlion, which seems to me to fall more or less within the range of stock atheist strategies for dealing with the religious here on MDB.

What specifically is it about my assessment that you disagree with? Don't say something about my tone or attitude but what specific idea or suspicion about him have I put forth that you are sure is flatly wrong?

But, I don't think either one of us is really qualified to tackle Nightlion.

and yet we both engage him. If I am guilty of not being an expert in the appropriate psychology then it is a guilt we both share (unless, unbeknownst to me, you are an expert).

I will admit that I like Nightlion.

Me too, at least when he shows his non-prophet side. In this recent case, he rubbed me the wrong way and for good reason.

There are aspects of his teaching that better match the spirit and substance of Book of Mormon teachings than what you may hear from others.

Well, yes. I think he just takes the Book of Mormon at face value the way anyone would if they weren't indoctrinated by the confusions of corporate Brighamite Mormonism. He has the advantage of not being bullied by the Mormon authorities. Add to that his ability to take his own extrapolations as messages from God and well....
Of course, I think he fell into a hole of his own making but at least it is his own.

I suppose we would also differ in how we would choose to describe Joseph Smith. Was he an ego-maniacal religious con-man or was he a prophet in the Judeo-Christian tradition?
I would emphasize the former. The latter might also be true in some academic sense but then it might be true of Koresh as well.
There are of course vast differences between James and either Joseph Smith or Koresh. There is the issue of ability to acquire followers just to mention a trivial one.
You are right that I am closer in my assessment of "prophets" to typical atheists than I am to social relativists like Feyerbend. I say "closer" but really I am not all that close to the stereotype you have in mind. I'm not even consistent over time (unfortunately).

Please don't jump to conclusions and tell me what I think. And sorry, but I don't believe that you are more expert than the men who were sent to deal with Koresh

I didn't indicate that I thought I was an expert of any kind.