Robert F. Smith writes online book

[_CaliforniaKid]

It is certainly not necessary for me as a Catholic to believe it, even though it would be temerarious for me to publicly belittle it.

By "devotee," I meant a devotee of the apparition.

[_hans castorp]

a hodgepodge of miscellaneous ideas from various sources

That's what religion is.

The theologian's job is to create a plausable consistancy from it for his/her current audience. Some hodgepodges are easier to deal with. Some theologians are brighter and more pursausive.

But in the end, that's all it is.

And I suppose all a poet does is organize "a hodgepodge of miscellaneous ideas from various sources." To compare the theologian to the physical scientist is Gradgrindism

hc

[_hans castorp]

It is certainly not necessary for me as a Catholic to believe it, even though it would be temerarious for me to publicly belittle it.

By "devotee," I meant a devotee of the apparition.

But it's not necessary for any Catholic to become a devotee. To say it is binding on its devotees is tautologous.

hc

[Guest]

a hodgepodge of miscellaneous ideas from various sources

That's what religion is.

The theologian's job is to create a plausable consistancy from it for his/her current audience. Some hodgepodges are easier to deal with. Some theologians are brighter and more pursausive.

But in the end, that's all it is.

And I suppose all a poet does is organize "a hodgepodge of miscellaneous ideas from various sources." To compare the theologian to the physical scientist is Gradgrindism

hc

That's nice. But I didn't compare a theologian to a physcial scientist, not that there's anything wrong with physical scientists.

lulu - Gradrindist

[Guest]

I respect your style, but your attitude leaves something to be desired. Of course, I have noted this all along, but never before engaged in debate with you, because of this. Call it an ad hominem, if you want.

It's not ad hominem at all. I didn't say anything about you. I am implying very strongly that you are employing a double standard, but that is not remotely an ad hominem attack.

Catholics do not pray to statues, and you know this. The statue only serves as a visual reminder of whatever saint we are asking to intercede for us-- a prayer multiplier, if you will.

We are getting into semantics, here.

Yes, I do know that. I went to a Catholic high school, and I have a very nostalgic, cozy feeling about Catholicism from that experience. But not all pagans actually prayed to the statute itself, either. Some of them also believed it was a visual reminder of Zeus or Osiris or whomever. "Heresy" is also a matter of semantics.

I am obviously not sola scriptura. Catholicism is internally consistent. Catholicism rejected those heresies, which are not consistent with the corpus of Catholic doctrine. They are inconsistent with Catholicism.

Do you see the circular reasoning, or should I point it out?

Many are inconsistent with each other. Now, if another religion wants to revive them, and run with them, have at it. However, the consequences can be dire, such as a theocratic Kingdom of God on Earth. I am reading "The Rise and Fall of the [Munster] Anabaptists" right now. WOW!!

MCB, I am sure it will not surprise you to learn that believing Latter-day Saints likewise think that "the Restored Gospel" is internally consistent. Roman Catholicism does have internal inconsistencies, just like every other belief system does. That's because human beings are not always internally consistent, either between each other or sometimes even within themselves as individuals.

Instead of being defensive, you might consider how the existence of some internal inconsistencies in Roman Catholicism does not present the same set of problems that internal inconsistencies in Mormonism do.

Done. You may rage and shake the dolly between your sharp teeth, but it is only an image of that which you hate.

MCB, I am serious that I don't mean this as a personal attack. But people in general don't like the criticisms they apply to other people's actions or beliefs turned on their own cherished beliefs. Just like everyone else, Catholics don't like what they consider to be blasphemy against their religion. A lot of LDS people are upset about "The Book of Mormon" musical. Similarly, a lot of Catholics get upset when movies like Dogma come out, even though it was made by a self-identified practicing Catholic. Or both the book and the film, The Last Temptation of Christ. Catholics are not averse to playing the persecution card, either.

Mormons are not so much "other" as you want them to be. The exact same criticisms you apply to Mormonism, which for the most part are well taken, can be used effectively against many of your own cherished beliefs. Whether you're an atheist or the Dalai Lama or the Pope, we're all just stumbling through life and spiritual experiences (or at least purported spiritual experiences) and trying to make sense out of it all. And trying to make sense out of it sometimes involves borrowing "heresies" and making them orthodox (through the ancient, mystical practice of ipse dixit). And sometimes it means using those things to fill in the gaps of your pre-existing set of beliefs is going to result in internal inconsistency. This is only really a problem if your truth claims demand that it is all handed down on tablets from Mt. Sinai, either literally or de facto. The latter position, unfortunately, is the one that the LDS Church takes. Hierarchical, orthodox religions frequently take some form of that position. But there are other religious/spiritual people who are able to frankly admit to syncretism without having an existential crisis.

The oft-repeated assertion that Moroni's Promise is some unique experience that nobody outside of Mormonism purports to have is simply not accurate.

Moroni's Promise was answered for me, and the answer is that the best of the Book of Mormon condemns Mormonism.

But that would still be a spiritual experience associated with learning "truth," so a negative response to Moroni's Promise not only negates the answer you were "supposed" to get, it negates the claim that only Mormons believe in personal revelation in the way they use the term.

EDIT: Fixed "consistency" to "inconsistency." And also I am cool because I said what my edit was.

[_hans castorp]

a hodgepodge of miscellaneous ideas from various sources

That's what religion is.

The theologian's job is to create a plausable consistancy from it for his/her current audience. Some hodgepodges are easier to deal with. Some theologians are brighter and more pursausive.

But in the end, that's all it is.

And I suppose all a poet does is organize "a hodgepodge of miscellaneous ideas from various sources." To compare the theologian to the physical scientist is Gradgrindism

hc

That's nice. But I didn't compare a theologian to a physcial scientist, not that there's anything wrong with physical scientists.

lulu - Graddrindist

So, who doesn't "organize a hodgepodge"?

hc

[_lulu]

a hodgepodge of miscellaneous ideas from various sources

That's what religion is.

The theologian's job is to create a plausable consistancy from it for his/her current audience. Some hodgepodges are easier to deal with. Some theologians are brighter and more pursausive.

But in the end, that's all it is.

And I suppose all a poet does is organize "a hodgepodge of miscellaneous ideas from various sources." To compare the theologian to the physical scientist is Gradgrindism

hc

That's nice. But I didn't compare a theologian to a physcial scientist, not that there's anything wrong with physical scientists.

lulu - Graddrindist

So, who doesn't "organize a hodgepodge"?

hc

That's what we all do. A scientist will then attempt to empirically verify her "organized hodgepodge" (sometimes known as a hypothosis) against empirical reality.

Many poets and theologians omit the last step.

Not that I have anything against poets and theologian as a group.

[Guest]

Well here's my little hodgepodge of miscellaneous ideas from various sources:

Evangelicals' conversion experience is one of receiving saving grace.

Mormons' conversion experience is one of receiving a testimony of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon.

Some Christian denominations receive semi-scriptural revelations.

Mormons receive scriptural revelations.

Those are some pretty substantial differences.

[_hans castorp]

So, who doesn't "organize a hodgepodge"?

hc

That's what we all do. A scientist will then attempt to empirically verify her "organized hodgepodge" (sometimes known as a hypothosis) against empirical reality.

Many poets and theologians omit the last step.

Not that I have anything against poets and theologian as a group.

So you are contrasting the poet/theologian to the scientist? Leaving aside the philosophical complications here, what does it look like when the poet/theologian takes the last step?

hc

[_lulu]

So, who doesn't "organize a hodgepodge"?

hc

That's what we all do. A scientist will then attempt to empirically verify her "organized hodgepodge" (sometimes known as a hypothosis) against empirical reality.

Many poets and theologians omit the last step.

Not that I have anything against poets and theologian as a group.

So you are contrasting the poet/theologian to the scientist?

No, that was your contrast, I merely followed up on it. And you omit the word "many" from your attempt to quote me.

So please don't misquote me or attribute your initial contrast to me.

Thanks in advance.