My First Post (why I'm here and the Gadianton Robbers)

[_Sethbag]

Henry, you will find that most of us on this board will have little sympathy for many of your arguments.

I can only speak for myself, but I have sympathy for anyone in Henry's shoes.

A crisis of faith is not like flipping a light switch. It's like fumbling in the dark of an enclosed room searching for something but you don't even know what you are looking for, then you stumble upon a light switch, then you flip it, but then you still can't see because you realize you are also blindfolded, and you've been conditioned all your life to never attempt to untie the blindfold, and when you finally get the courage to do so you find it is tied in some crazy impossible knot, so you work on it a little each day all the while feeling guilty for doing the thing you've been conditioned not to do and you are scared to death of losing your family and your salvation, and when finally you get the knot undone and the blindfold off the light is so blinding it hurts and you wish you could put the blindfold back on, even just a little, because you can't conceive that your eyes will ever adjust to the blinding light, and so you hold the blindfold against your eyes with your hands and let the light in just a crack at a time, then a little more, then a little more, then a little more...

Wow, that was really good.

When I said most here would have little sympathy, I did say it was for the arguments, not for the person. And what are the arguments that I have little sympathy for?

That the church isn't true, but that Joseph Smith was in fact a real Prophet, until he somehow "fell".
That the church isn't true, but they still really do hold the "keys", they just don't know how to use them properly.
That the church isn't true, but the Mormon Gospel still is true.

These are similar to other arguments for which I likewise can find little sympathy, including that the Book of Mormon isn't true, but is still valuable scripture from God.

I suppose I can see your points though. People who come up with arguments like this have seen that the there are fundamental problems with the church's claims, and that it's probably not really true, but instead of rejecting it they cast around for a way to meet the truth halfway, and accept the problems but still give Joseph Smith or the church some kind of pass. Maybe this is what you described as holding the blindfold back up to their eyes and only letting in a few rays of light at a time, trying to let them get used to the brightness.

[_Chap]

What Shades says is logically possible. In practical terms, however, Sethbag's observations dispose of most of the best-publicized conspiracy theories - such as, for instance "We never landed on the Moon".

Or there was never a Jewish Holocaust.

I am proof against that one, because I have seen the family trees of my wife's family. "There's Uncle Abraham. He and his family were killed at X in 194Y. His brother and his wife on the other hand got away to A, and they survived until 194Z." And so on. And so on.

[_Sethbag]

But most of the conspiracy theories I have heard or read about are just too ridiculous. People can't keep their mouths shut, in reality. Have you ever heard the maxim "two people can keep a secret, as long as one of them is dead?" Now imagine thousands, or tens of thousands, or even millions of people who would have to be in on some of these imagined conspiracies, and yet nobody breaks ranks and uncovers it all? Isn't that just a little too hard to believe?

Or maybe people break ranks all the time, and we call those people "conspiracy theorists," and we don't believe them.

You might have a point if the conspiracy theorists claimed to be part of the conspiracy originally, but that's not what we see. Take the "9/11 Truthers" for example. You get these nutjobs claiming the Government fired a missile at one of the towers or whatever, but you never hear from the pilot, do you? Or the ground handler who loaded the missile onto the plane. Nope, it's some guy claiming a video artifact he's discovered in the news coverage of the towers proves it all.

[_Bob Loblaw]

You might have a point if the conspiracy theorists claimed to be part of the conspiracy originally, but that's not what we see. Take the "9/11 Truthers" for example. You get these nutjobs claiming the Government fired a missile at one of the towers or whatever, but you never hear from the pilot, do you? Or the ground handler who loaded the missile onto the plane. Nope, it's some guy claiming a video artifact he's discovered in the news coverage of the towers proves it all.

Yup, like the guys who come forward saying they were involved in the JFK assassination or know something. One guy, for example, has made money by claiming he was Lee Oswald's cell mate in the Dallas Police Department jail. Except he wasn't. Or the (exmo) woman who claims she was Oswald's lover, but she conveniently threw away all the letters he wrote telling her about the conspiracy.

I'll take notice when something credible emerges but most of these conspiracy theorists are either crazy or trying to make a buck.

[_Fence Sitter]

I can only speak for myself, but I have sympathy for anyone in Henry's shoes.

A crisis of faith is not like flipping a light switch. It's like fumbling in the dark of an enclosed room searching for something but you don't even know what you are looking for, then you stumble upon a light switch, then you flip it, but then you still can't see because you realize you are also blindfolded, and you've been conditioned all your life to never attempt to untie the blindfold, and when you finally get the courage to do so you find it is tied in some crazy impossible knot, so you work on it a little each day all the while feeling guilty for doing the thing you've been conditioned not to do and you are scared to death of losing your family and your salvation, and when finally you get the knot undone and the blindfold off the light is so blinding it hurts and you wish you could put the blindfold back on, even just a little, because you can't conceive that your eyes will ever adjust to the blinding light, and so you hold the blindfold against your eyes with your hands and let the light in just a crack at a time, then a little more, then a little more, then a little more...

Which is exactly why the Church tries to control information. They want to prevent the believer from ever taking that first step and they believe they are acting in his/her best interest by doing so. (hmm this plan sounds vaguely familiar.)

[_Tim the Enchanter]

Wow, that was really good.

When I said most here would have little sympathy, I did say it was for the arguments, not for the person. And what are the arguments that I have little sympathy for?

That the church isn't true, but that Joseph Smith was in fact a real Prophet, until he somehow "fell".
That the church isn't true, but they still really do hold the "keys", they just don't know how to use them properly.
That the church isn't true, but the Mormon Gospel still is true.

These are similar to other arguments for which I likewise can find little sympathy, including that the Book of Mormon isn't true, but is still valuable scripture from God.

I suppose I can see your points though. People who come up with arguments like this have seen that the there are fundamental problems with the church's claims, and that it's probably not really true, but instead of rejecting it they cast around for a way to meet the truth halfway, and accept the problems but still give Joseph Smith or the church some kind of pass. Maybe this is what you described as holding the blindfold back up to their eyes and only letting in a few rays of light at a time, trying to let them get used to the brightness.

I think we are on the same page basically. I have sympathy for the arguments as well. I think a lot of TBM's (like I was) go kicking and screaming and try to negotiate with their mind what they can hold onto that they used to "know." And during that transition, you test out different arguments in your head. At least that was my experience. I think most people that get to the point where they try to "meet the truth halfway," will eventually recognize that holding onto some sense of the church's unique truth claims just doesn't work. But what do I know? People are different and it's a crazy world.

[_Henry McClean]

This is my 13th and final post on this message board. When I read in the rules that "anything goes," I was hoping to find a place on the internet for an open minded discussion. I opened the OP with a glimpse on where I stand on the Church just to give you all some context and most of you can't let go of that. My faith is very personal to me and my purpose in coming here was not to justify it to random people on the internet. I guarantee you that God exists. I question things about the Church. But you people here are closed minded or fixated enough on the subject that it is all you want to talk about. Talk about closed minded. Sophistry is alive and well. Whatever the truth may be, this much I know: this place is full of more negative energy than almost any place I've encountered on the internet. Finding this place and feeling like I fit in, to a certain extent, is a good wake up call to me that I need to get outside and feel the sunlight on my face from time to time.

In terms of Secret Combinations, I suggest you people wake up. The U.S. government has been experimenting on its citizens since the early 1950s. The existence of MK Ultra and programs like it is verified as a matter of public record. The fact that groups like the Bilderbergs, the Council on Foreign Relations, and other groups meet periodically to direct their collective power towards specific goals is also a matter of public record. The fact that every Republican Presidential candidate between Nixon and Bush 2 attended the pagan ceremonies at Bohemian Grove is fairly well known. Did Mitt Romney go to Bohemian Grove? I don't know. But it would have been nice to compare notes but people couldn't stay on topic long enough to have a discussion about it. What about Elder Pace's memo in 1990 about Satanic Ritual Abuse in Utah? Before I knew anything about it, back in the early 90s, I was on a walk with my girlfriend near dusk in the gully below Tanner Park in Salt Lake (let's be honest, we were looking for a place to make out). We turned a corner and came upon a guy dressed like a freaking warlock. Tim the Enchanter's avatar from Monty Python is not far from what the guy looked like. As soon as he saw us, he turned into some trees in the opposite direction. We were creeped out and high-tailed it out of there. I could go on and on. This stuff exists and folks need to wake up to it. Go watch the movie Network. If you think that Howard Beale's "come to Jesus" talk with the shadowy figure in the movie is purely fictional, then you understand little about how mind control works.

"And all we've got to say to you is good-bye."

[_Drifting]

This is my 13th and final post on this message board. When I read in the rules that "anything goes," I was hoping to find a place on the internet for an open minded discussion. I opened the OP with a glimpse on where I stand on the Church just to give you all some context and most of you can't let go of that. My faith is very personal to me and my purpose in coming here was not to justify it to random people on the internet. I guarantee you that God exists. I question things about the Church. But you people here are closed minded or fixated enough on the subject that it is all you want to talk about. Talk about closed minded. Sophistry is alive and well. Whatever the truth may be, this much I know: this place is full of more negative energy than almost any place I've encountered on the internet. Finding this place and feeling like I fit in, to a certain extent, is a good wake up call to me that I need to get outside and feel the sunlight on my face from time to time.

In terms of Secret Combinations, I suggest you people wake up. The U.S. government has been experimenting on its citizens since the early 1950s. The existence of MK Ultra and programs like it verified matter of public record. The fact that groups like the Bilderbergs, the Council on Foreign Relations, and other groups meet periodically to direct their collective power towards specific goals is also a matter of public record. The fact that every Republican Presidential candidate between Nixon and Bush 2 attended the pagan ceremonies at Bohemian Grove is fairly well known. Did Mitt Romney go to Bohemian Grove? I don't know. But it would have been nice to compare notes but people couldn't stay on topic long enough to have a discussion about it. What about Elder Pace's memo in 1990 about Satanic Ritual Abuse in Utah? Before I knew anything about it, back in the early 90s, I was on a walk with my girlfriend near dusk in the gully below Tanner Park in Salt Lake (let's be honest, we were looking for a place to make out). We turned a corner and came upon a guy dressed like a freaking warlock. Tim the Enchanter's avatar from Monty Python is not far from what the guy looked like. As soon as he saw us, he turned into some trees in the opposite direction. We were creeped out and high-tailed it out of there. I could go on and on. This stuff exists and folks need to wake up to it. Go watch the movie Network. If you think that Howard Beale's "come to Jesus" talk with the shadowy figure in the movie is purely fictional, then you understand little about how mind control works.

"And all we've got to say to you is good-bye."

Before you go can you suggest a supplier of high grade tin foil?

[_Chap]

My faith is very personal to me and my purpose in coming here was not to justify it to random people on the internet.

I guarantee you that God exists.

Somehow I see an inconsistency of approach here.

(And by the way, who is willing to guarantee to readers of this board that a guarantee from Henry McLean is worth the pixels it is displayed on?)

[_Sethbag]

I think we are on the same page basically. I have sympathy for the arguments as well. I think a lot of TBM's (like I was) go kicking and screaming and try to negotiate with their mind what they can hold onto that they used to "know." And during that transition, you test out different arguments in your head.

True. I recall testing out various arguments in my head too. A lot of them were predicated on the idea that most church teachings aren't really crucial to my eternal salvation. In my own experience, it was seeing some of these arguments made by FARMS apologists that helped tip me over the edge. That, and I realized that I was having to make these little apologetic arguments and compromises about almost everything to do with the church. At some point it just seemed pretty clear that by the time I was having to make excuses for almost everything about the church, I really knew in my heart of hearts that I needed to consider whether the church really is true after all.

I think the reason we make those little arguments and apologetic excuses is because we're not ready yet to consider whether the church really is true. It's hard to unwind our minds from an idea we've treasured in the past, and given so much of ourselves to.

It is the intellectual analog to "throwing good money after bad."

At least that was my experience. I think most people that get to the point where they try to "meet the truth halfway," will eventually recognize that holding onto some sense of the church's unique truth claims just doesn't work. But what do I know? People are different and it's a crazy world.

I agree with this. Some disagree, and think people like you and me are too "black and white" in our thinking.